Microsoft's IE unbundling treated with skepticism

God does anyone even care what browser they use nowadays. IE8 is a perfectly acceptable browser and I happily use it. Who cares if MS bundles it with Windows or not.

The European Commission should really spend its time and money elsewhere instead of wasting time on this. Some of us really just don't care. I mean Paint gets bundled with Windows and there are alternatives for that too, but you don't see anyone moaning about that do you?

Internet Exploder is a (deserved) nickname.

Thanks for taking the time to point this out to the Inq regulars.

Martin, here's a hankerchief, you're drooling again. If you were to read the INQ more often than once a life, you'd realize that the writers and editors employ what's know as sarcastic humor. I realize that in your small, dark, uber-serious, leftist universe, concepts such as "sense of humor" are completely unknown, but hey, cut us some slack here. The INQsters, except for Charlie, are Brits, ya know, and thems people do dat sort of ting regular like, ya know?

Charlie, on the other hand, had a strange, tormented childhood and takes extreme delight in torturing small, helpless creatures, like NVidia.

So, what DO you get if you remove Internet Exploder from Windoze? Yes, I know, trick question. Nobody knows, Microsoft said it couldn't be done. Actually, I suspect that without IE, Windoze would look a lot like DOS.

And as for Windoze Me 2-1/2? Let's wait until it actually emerges from the dungeons to judge if Ballmer has managed to outdo Victor Frankenstein this time.

Usually companies are able to decide what their product is and the price for their product, but not when companies are as big as MS or Intel. But really, this is one of the stupidest things to argue about.

Legislators and courts should concentrate on ensuring interoperability (in the PC ecosystem, because openness is some kind of historically accepted notion there), not on micromanaging the internals of an operating system or web browsers. The operating system should be allowed to integrate all kinds of widgets and gadgets as time passes. No company should realistically expect to make money out of web browsers anymore.

I guess it would be just about impossible for MS to include (fully functional) Windows in the (next generation) Xbox. However, it would be easy for Apple to include OsX in a game console. Go figure.

Funny he didn't pick up on the use of the term Vole, however.

The EU has simply gone too far.

IF MS would have mad it possible to actually un-install IE it may not have got into head bashing with them. The fact that MS tried to shove IE on everyone and stating it was impossible to remove was why they are in trouble in the first place.
There are the Apple haters who will say Safari is bundled. Well guess what, if you drag Safari to the trash then empty it it is gone, not hidden. You will have to download it again or re-install OS X to get it back. That is the difference between Apple and MS.

The whole time MS was trying to play their IE wars they were making IE use various crafty non standard code that would make things difficult for other browsers to run on their pages, sound familiar! It should, it has been a standard practice at MS. Look at Office, look at the Open Document fiasco last year and getting their illegitimate ISO standard through. They are a convicted monopolist.

Microsoft invented the Windows operating system and they invented IE to run on it. So its their product. What right do we have to insist that they sell or offer someone elses product? Do we force automotive suppliers to fit different engine management systems?

What a crazy argument by the "I want to knock MS" brigade. Grow up! windows is just too good, no-one comes even close as a competitor, so why not try and do better yourselves rather than just complaining.

They're perfectly free to install Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Opera, or whatever browser they want.. and to even make it the default browser.

Don't want IE at all on your computer? Use another operating system! Just because most consumers do not take advantage of a choice doesn't mean they don't have the choice.

I hope they give some form of browser otherwise we'll be in the same place with browsers that we are with network card drivers.
Needing the internet before you can use it is one pain in the behind and will really mess up my grandmother.

Regulas: The difference between Apple and MS is that in the Apple ecosystem something is possible only if Apple chooses so. (Only the graphics cards that apple allows, OS not available to other manufacturers for installation on their machines, etc.) In the Windows/MS ecosystem, there is a historical notion that it should be open. And MS has to maintain a high-level of backwards compatibility, which Apple does not have to bother with. (Can do so when it makes business sense, that is.)

No doubt if Apple had 80 percent plus market share, more demands on openness and interoperability would be placed on it.

And: All companies occasionally play tricks with interoperability. The bigger company just has the upper hand in that game. And therefore gets (and should get) more scrutiny.

So Many Flavours & Most, NOT even improvement in depth of Operations. Why would NT5 system want to spend Hundreds, Yea-Thousands to "Upgrade" O.S, Just to remain NT5?

Most of micsof stuff IS Cleaver Deception, Thruout. Is There Reliable NT6 Ultimate 64 System Close, yet till xp dies in few months, Probably NOT. Manufacturers Just Cann't Put Out compatible Product Until Its Open Field.

When xp IS Finaaly Gone, Maybe TV converter Box Ads Will Be LONG Forgotten.

...It would be "Microsoft".

Most people are completely oblivious to what MS does in the real world.

MS's responsibility is to themselves and their shareholders. They will do anything and everything to maintain their position.

The EU is on their ass because of their behaviour. And the ignorant still complain that nobody should care about MS bundling! Its like letting a serial criminal go! It doesn't matter if they raped, tortured, murdered, etc in the past. The past is the past. Let bygones be bygones!

Seriously, even when given the chance to support something like ODF in their very own Office package (See Office 2007 SP2), they deliberately screw it up by intentionally selecting the version of ODF spec with a loop hole they can exploit as an excuse!

ie: OpenOffice, KOffice, Sun's doc conversion plugin for MS Office, AND even the open source project that MS funded got the ODF conversion right! Only the folks in Redmond intentionally made their support wrong!

Then there's web standards. Any Dick, Tom, and Harry who's coded up websites knows that Internet Exploder doesn't comply to standards but their own. Web devs have to painstakingly make hacks to support the Exploder browser.

When Safari, Chrome, Firefox, Opera, etc can do it, and Exploder can't, you know something is up.

Then again, Microsoft isn't a fan of open standards. "Open anything" means they don't have control. No control means no potential for maximum profit.

Look at OpenCL's member list: 3DLABS, Activision Blizzard, AMD, Apple, ARM, Broadcom, Codeplay, Electronic Arts, Ericsson, Freescale, Fujitsu, GE, Graphic Remedy, HI, IBM, Intel, Imagination Technologies, Los Alamos National Laboratory, Motorola, Movidia, Nokia, NVIDIA, Petapath, QNX, Qualcomm, RapidMind, Samsung, Seaweed, S3, ST Microelectronics, Takumi, Texas Instruments and Toshiba.

...That's pretty much everyone in the tech industry. Notice how Microsoft is absent? = Quick! It has the word "Open" in it! Don't support it!

Do you folks see the game MS is playing?

= If it isn't our browser, it will be NO browser! We'll make the EU look like the bad guys as the consumer suffers! But don't worry, we'll offer IE on a special install pack!

"and will make it as difficult as possible for Windows users to acquire and install an alternative web browser"

Double click on setup ? gosh that was hard ;o)

Will updates work without Aiyeeee? I thought it was an ocx thingy.

Why do not they resolve to include every big browser under the sun? Just like any self-respectable linux distro does.

Just bundle Opera, Fireferret, IExploder and even the terribad Safari and the user can pick the one he/she likes and forget about the rest.

Browser wars is so 90s and it's getting way too silly.

EU is just after a cash grab. I don't think there is anything at all stopping OEMS from shipping windows with firefox installed and as the default browser. They preinstall loads of garbage.

OEMs don't care, and neither do consumers. If you don't like IE you only need to use it for all of 2 minutes to download something else. An OS SHOULD come with a web browser and microsoft SHOULD be able to ship with their own browser as the default.

I rarely use IE but this is just a cash grab. Microsoft may be a convicted monopolist, no doubt. But windows is their product and they should be able to do whatever they want with it and leave it up to customers to decide whether they want it. If they are forcing OEMs to be windows only - they should pay and get anti-trust violations (which they have done), but wanting to use their own web browser in their own os is not anti-trust.

Can we uninstall the EU?

As others have pointed out, just because IE comes with Windows does not mean you have to use IE as your web browser. There is Chrome, Firefox, Oprah, and Safari available for free download on the web, so what's the problem? Laziness? Not wanting to download a free program that works better than IE? Or is it just another excuse for the EU to bilk money out of a Yank tech Company because it's easy to do? UTTER POPPY COCK!!!!

Oh. I'd like some of your heaping Fire-Kissed Gamba Teasers For Two, and oh... now you give me the "Burnt End" and charge me more for what is Take-Away? and how much for the Carolina Sauce?

No wonder they say this is not keeping casher!

You sir, are an idiot.

I think these articles need to explain the principles of the underlying problem.

The browser isn't about making money directly it's about controlling the standards that drive the internet and commerce on the web. It is key to ensuring your servers are sold and your operating system.

The grip Microsoft has on the market is weaker than ever before because the browser is more important than office applications or the OS now. However Microsoft's OS market share hasn't shrunk significantly yet because for many people ...

the internet is Internet Explorer. It doesn't cross their mind to install an alternate browser.

The EU is nobly trying to ensure a competitive browser market by removing the default situation (just like the DoJ failed to do in the US). Microsoft is resisting by delaying tactics and spinning to try and make the EU look like the bad guys.

The sums of money involved are small compared to EU budgets. This is not about money. It's about a competitive market.

Sadly, the EU will fail here. The right answer is probably to ensure that their are open APIs between Windows and the Browser and replacement browsers can completely replace IE.

Microsoft has too much to loose to ever allow this to happen.

PS- I don't hate Microsoft. My desktop runs Vista with no problems. This laptop is Ubuntu again with no problems.

The same argument could be said to a car manufacturer. Even though its extremely easy to install 3rd party tyres on a car should the EU antitrust commission not go after the manufacturer of the car and make them allow their customers have the choice? Sheer stupidity

Every heard of Wget? FTP?
It's no problem to let people click and via either of them a browser of choice is being downloaded.
God Microsoft is stupid!

Without babbling on, I disagree with this 100% Example

Chevy makes new car and it comes a installed cd player in the dash board. Who is to say what stereo is in the thing, ITS THEIR CAR. Okay sell the car with out the stereo but now there are wires left there, and they are going to kick up a stink with this becuse the stereo wasn't compleatly removed??? If i were microsoft i would ignore them compleately and stop selling windows there. Screw it take the loss!

So let me get this straight: the EC says that IE can't be in Win7, but that the OS without any browser is useless? So the browser is an integral part of the OS, but it can't be bundled? Now that's just contradictory.

And somehow its MORE legal to force a company to include its COMPETITORS' products in its packaging.

That (somehow) aside, who gives a fig about whether or not an OS has this or that included when it is SO INCREDIBLY EASY to install third-party software? The quality of the product is the only determining factor these days, as almost everything is cheap/free and equally available.

I've complained about this before with no good response, so I'll just bring it up again: what is and is not "legal" to "bundle" with an OS these days? Let's define the rules of the game before the referee starts calling foul. It's obviously more than nothing (i.e. 'just the OS') because there hasn't been any lawsuits about Solitaire, Paint, Notepad, Search, Defender, or any of the drivers, screen-savers, or backgrounds (variations on all of which, by the way, are available from third parties). And the application of the rules isn't uniform, as Apple's OS X is apparently immune from scrutiny, though it actually bundles FAR more software on its machines than Microsoft does. So what's the deal? When the EC publishes a list of what's in and what's out... and applies it to ALL COMPANIES EQUALLY, then I'll pipe down.

I think it's the default search engine that matters more than the default browser.

And all the other default choices are where MS are probably going to have their software as the default. Which would be fine if they lowered the prices.

-- But, aren't all KDE linuxes doing the same -and I DO mean the same- with Konqueror? Do they give an alternative choice? Sometimes no. KDE is monopolizing too! Remove Konqueror from KDE please.

But obviously this case was overlooked by the juridical geniuses from Brussels.

-- Like the Mozilla Foundation hasn't been grossly benefited by Canonical and the inclusion of Firefox as the default browser of Ubuntu. And from what I can see, Mozilla Foundation has really good relationships with google.. Hmm..

Anyway, a modern OS without a browser? It can't be. As with dvd playback in xp sp2, the responsibility falls again in the backs of the OEMs. Ouch! Prepare to see IE loaded with super annoying toolbars with ads, registration forms and that kind stuff.

-- If these people at the EU actually gave a dime about monoply issues, they would force MS to respect web standards, open the rendering mechanism and transfer IE to other OSes, and not the other way around.

Windows is already an overblown OS, the last it needs is another browser. It's IE that should move to other OSes.

Some people are real dumb.
Compare to Linux is stupid, Linux distributions are not monopolies.
You choose the distro you like, you can change the desktop and browser to what ever you like.
M$ Windows is different, you are forced:

1 To pay M$ tax when you by a PC, unless you build your own, not many people can do that.

2 M$ forces you to use IE when updating your system, also many websites FORCE you to use IE, else it will NOT work.

3 M$ doesn't give a shit about standards, why should they? You are forced to use Windows remember!

4 If it was upto M$, they forced you to use MSN, they have tried in the past!
MSN doesn't stand for chat! It was supposed to become their DOMINANT M$-NETWORK!

5 If it was upto M$ they killed Linux after OS/2 and BeOS...they tried many times already!

M$ is not some nice company giving us the good things.
They are evil and behave as such.
IBM was splitted into several companies before, why not M$?
M$ has bought the USA, silly is, they don't even know it!
Stupid Yanks!

"It was also critical of the Vole's apparent plan to sell retail copies of Windows 7 without any web browser at all, which could set up a potential Catch-22 situation in that the ploy might make it impossible for buyers to initially access the Internet at all in order to download any alternative web browser."

The irony is that it fully displays the absurdity in the trashing of Microsoft for bundling IE with their operating system to begin with. EU is just pissing for the sake of pissing over this. Firefox has gained tremendous support over the last couple of years even though Microsoft have bundled IE in every OS released since the "big crunch" over 'monopolistic practices'. What is REALLY going on is prestige: someone badly want to knock Microsoft down a couple of pegs for the sake of it.

In one Chinese saying (my translation may not be exact): If I want you to be punished, I can find a thousand reasons to impeach you.
EU may be cash strapped and they need to find source of money - Microsoft and Intel are two easy targets.
EU's arguments are both stupid and political - Bundled the IE, you are sued. Unbundled the IE, you are sued twice.
Why didn't the US government say something about the action of EU this time? The EU is bullying Microsoft and Intel.
I really would like to complain to EU why Nokia had to build camera inside its mobile phone. Nokia has the dominant market shares worldwide in Mobile Phone handset business and thus they shouldn't innovate their phone to build internal camera, because that would hurt the business of Canon, Sony, Olympus, Nikon, as well as many other camera manufacturers.
Garmin and TomTom (no need to raise money by itself) should really complain to EU regarding BMW and Mercedes-Benz's ruthless behaviour to pre-install all advanced GPS system in their cars and their action jeopardized the sales of Garmin and Tomtom's overall GPS sales.
The chief of Bing.com (ex-Live.com or MSN.com) should complain to EU why the internet browsers of Opera, Chrome, Firefox and Safari didn't come pre-config to have the "Bing.com" search feature. iPhone and G1's customers are now forced to use the search engines of either Google's or Yahoo's. I really want to use "Bing.com" and no way I could use it in my iPhone.
Listen carefully, Intel - If you want to avoid paying the EU's fines or their persecution in future, just bundle another AMD CPU for each of your own CPU sales. It's cheaper than paying your fines (US$1.45 billion) to EU. And AMD may give you special discount on that.

I wish Microsoft would bundle IE and natively filter 3rd party browser websites.

This seems like good example of EU wrong doing to customers:

-M$ should not Build-In only IE as it harms competition/standards.

-M$ at same time should not choose by itself which browsers would be preinstalled... it doesn't matter if it includes 2-4 as they might still some browser and get sued as a result. (apart of fact that multiple icons to run different browsers makes new OS GUI more confusing for user).

My conclusion:
For me it seems like EU bureaucrats try to prove their usefulness by inviting new nonsense.

Assuming the EU pressures Microsoft into not including a web browser I will look forward to a "magically download random browser" button.

And when I have my random browser I shall use it to download Opera, which I will use as my main. Then I will download IE as a backup because it always works.

Europe is a nice place to visit, I just wouldn't want to live there (neither did my ancestors). I am eternally thankful we got out while the getting was good. Good luck with your "union" chumps.