Microsoft's deal with New Zealand falls apart

Although certainly not a lover of Microsoft due to its draconian rules set in Vista, my experience with Open source is even worse.
Bought the soft ware (cheap), inserted it in my computer, loaded it in a seperate file and promptly lost everything to do with Microsoft despite the message that nothing would change.
$250 later, lost half my work (unrecoverable) so will give it a miss and would have to wonder how many Government services will come to a stand still.

I use open source every day, and lots of it. But seriously, microsoft office is worth the money if you use office daily. SQL Server 2005/8 etc is worth the money if you need the advanced functionality and use it heavily, photoshop eats gimp for breakfast, etc, etc.

There is lots of room for open source. Some of it like firefox is very good and can hold it's own against the best out there. But most of it like postgresql or eclipse, etc are good enough for many people but clearly are lacking compared to oracle/sql server or visual studio.

I think for most people $120 or whatever windows costs these days is a bargain. I think for most businesses ms office is a bargain, as is ms small business server. It'll cost them way more in time to figure out linux and learn similiar but generally not quite as good apps.

Again there are exceptions, eg php and mysql, while not really enterprise grade like java/oracle and .net/sqlserver, is good enough for most small/medium applications.

And open source tends to have hefty support rates, tech support is often free or less expensive with paid software.

Savings yes, progress maybe.

"Bought the soft ware (cheap), inserted it in my computer, loaded it in a seperate file"

What the hell are you talking about. Are you 4 years old or something?

I doubt his native language is English but I understood exactly what he was saying.
how old are you Colin F? Under 20 is my guess....

Heres UpDate on 7 Beta:

A weekend e-mail from Microsoft incorrectly stated the start date for bi-hourly Windows 7 beta shutdowns, the company said in a Tuesday blog post.

The e-mail warned users that the beta version of Windows 7 would expire on August 1 and suggested that users upgrade to "non-expired" copies, like Windows 7 RC or Windows Vista. Bi-hourly shutdowns of the beta version, however, will begin on July 1, not June 1.

"The Windows 7 Beta does expire on August 1, 2009; unfortunately the date for when bi-hourly shutdowns will begin for the Windows 7 Beta was incorrect," wrote Microsoft spokesman Brandon LeBlanc. "Bi-hourly shutdowns for the Windows 7 Beta will begin July 1, 2009."

"We apologize

Unfortunately, 2 hour shutDowns Will Fairly Quickly KILL Your 'puter. Worse, sometimes it'll be Blue Screen of Death, just ripping Guts Out of YOUR system. Well thats what Microsoft IS Famous for. Gut Wrenching shet'k....7 R/C Last DownLoad w/ Activation # Is:17June''9.

Anyway, the March deadline was for Win7 RC, obviously to get more people to test the RC they are going to want more people to move from the BETA so an earlier deadline/piss of the users campaign on those still using BETA versions isn't really that surprising.....though you do seem surprised.

Kia kaha, Aotearoa!

While @M.Berghuis's comments were intelligible despite the language barrier, @ Colin F is correct (though less than tactfully) that few details were presented and the assumption that the open-source software was responsible is questionable. It's important to note that in the hands of a naive user, any software (proprietary or open-source) could corrupt a system if used improperly. Certainly, Windows doesn't play nice with another installed operating system. Such users are less likely capable of a Windows install.

Paid for open-source software?
Paid $250 to fix the system unsuccessfully?
Shouldn't be messing around if you don't know anything about what you're doing - definitely. That's what paid support is about...when you need it.

@Andrew "I think for most people $120 or whatever windows costs these days is a bargain."

Well, it might be, if you got install media and it was easily re-installable if you changed your hard drive or your motherboard.

For most people, Linux and Windows are indistinguishable. They both work well, support web browsing, office applications (free with Linux, $$$ with MS) and pretty much everything else the typical home user could want.

Congratulations, NZ, for looking beyond the hype and trying something new. More large scale users could end up making Open Source software an even better choice.

SSC in New Zealand is an advisory committe, they are there to provide advice to government departments about how to improve efficiency.

So what was the contract that collapsed ?? Is certainly was **NOT** the NZ Govnt IT buying department, ie the tresury the department who pay for everything has a contract with MS, and if you read the article, its up to each department to decide what they want.

It's also the job of the SSC to do the evaluations, yet this lady is asking the other departments to do their own.

How is the SSC going to evaluate FOSS against Windows if they no longer have a contract with MS ?

Well at least it appears there is one FOSS zealot in the NZ SSC,

Simply put, there is NO Foss alternatives to MS OFfice that is up to the task.

And all business use MS office, so if Government want to deal with business, they too will just use what works.

posted by : Andrew, 26 May 2009

@Andrew:
26 May 2009 must be your birthday as your post sounds like you were born yesterday.

Your post shows how ignorant you are (insulting since you chose to be ignorant and your post is insulting to the readers).

I do use all MS software at work, especially the ones you mentioned, and FOSS software at home. I don't believe you use Open Source otherwise you would have known better.

My experience doesn't agree with your conclusions. MySQL/PgSQL can do everything SQL server can do but with minimal or no cost. Can you cite what is it that SQL Server can do but MySQL/PgSQL can't?

The same goes to Gimp, Linux OS, Open Office, etc. etc...

In regards to Windows being a bargain, I really can't think of a more stupid statement than that.
Consider this:
A company with 10,000 computers with standard applications that are available from the Internet for zero (zilch) cost. Here is what it costs from MS.

SW # of Units Unit Cost SubTotal/yr. FOSS
===== ======= ======= ====
OS 10,000 $100. $1,000,000. $0.
Office 10,000 $150. $1,500,100. $0.
Graphics 100 $200. $20,000. $0.
AntiVirus 10,000 $20. $200,000. $0.
…
…
Add your own apps as you wish and please tell us why you still consider MS products are still a bargain?
Keep in mind that FOSS software is just as good if not better than MS, but without the flashy razzle-dazzle that MS is selling you for top Dollars.

And in terms of support, I don't think you have any idea how much MS charges for support on the top of the license fees they charge. If you have know, you wouldn't make such statements unless you intentionally try to mislead the readers.

Don't assume that the readers of your posts are as ignorant as you are.

If you don't have facts, please avoid posting such stupid thoughts to save yourself from humiliation on the Internet.

I too understood what was said. M. made NO BACKUP!!!then went playing with low level stuff like OS installation and partition management.

The best made software in the world can't prevent user stupidity.

@ darryl,

[Simply put, there is NO Foss alternatives to MS OFfice that is up to the task.]

Can you back up your claim?

Can you cite anything that you couldn't do with OOo?

I can cite multiple things that OOo can do MS Office couldn't. Creating PDF on the fly is one, supporting ISO Open standards is another. How about interfacing with all sort of databases? How about NO COST?

I also think OOo is much better in doing many thinks that MS is trying to catch up with in MS XML office. Styling and formating is one area.

My wife works at a little company that uses OOo. She sent a proposal to a customer accidentally in ODF format. She called to apologize and let him know that she will be sending another in MS Office format. He immediately said not to worry since they also use OpenOffice. He also added by saying since you use OOo, we know you are concerned about cost and we are getting the best prices from you. Take that Mr.

I use OpenOffice and can't find anything I need to do that I wasn't able to do it with OpenOffice.

How about the tens of millions that download OOo and using it day in day out? Do you think there are that many people in the world who would use an app. that is lacking and doesn't do things they want done?

Please get a clue.

Remember that unlike certain other ex-colonies NZ did not fight a war of independence or throw its tea out of its pram. Instead your esteemed polititians had to take a break from home renovations at public expense to pass a law to force us to take some responsibility for ourselves. Nevertheless, dear old Lizzie is still officially THE BOSS, although since she doesn't come here often, it might actually be a better arrangement than having a president.
Given our kiwi affinity for all things imperialistic, breaking with Microsoft might be quite hard to do. Apparently Microsoft NZ is one of the most profitable divisions (presumably per capita) worldwide. Bill Gates owns a place down here, and Microsoft flys folk down here to do a spot "presentations at conferences".. (ie trout fishing)
There have been a few republican rumblings here of late and even a few local open source efforts. Could also have something to do with a Kiwi bloke who likes to bring his work mates Larry and Sergey with him on trips downunder.
We kiwis seem to have an affinity for royalty - even better if there's a home grown connection!

As apparently only naming one thing is enough...

It can't work with files more than 65535 lines in it's spreadsheet.

Try working in the telecom industry and see how many csv files you get that are more than 65535 lines....

Excel can open files with 1,000,000 lines, btw.

I'm guessing of course that now one thing won't be enough and you'll need more to satisfy your childish claims.

To have data in a spreadsheet with more than 65535 lines?

This is not the intended use of a spreadsheet program, and user are better off using the database instead.

Just my 2 cent

@Andrew

[one thing open office can't do]

First off, that is not accurate, it can but it is not practical due to performance issues one will have in both OOo & MS Office.

And like @peace indicated, one uses the right tool for a job. For such amount of data, spreadsheets are not suitable whether you use MS Excel or OOo Calc, one would use a database like OOo Base or better yet, a database engine like MySQL or PgSql. It doesn't make sense to use a spreadsheet tool. Operation that take minutes in spreadsheet takes seconds using a DB engine and will have much better capabilities and feature.

Let me point you to the following links for more info.

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Calc/hacks/number_of_rows

http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=60354

Yes let's all pass each other postgres database files when sending invoices.... Of course, why didn't we think of that????

Our data is in sql databases, as I'm sure all of our customers data is as well, but every company uses different schemas and sql backends. Data is passed back and forth as csv files because anybody can parse and import a csv file.

Performance is fine opening large files in excel. It happens to be very convenient to not have to do a database import to look at a file. And as this is billing information, it so happens that some of excel's formulas and spreadsheet capabilities are useful.

I think in the end the point is missed. I'm saying that open source software is often not better than the commercial alternatives. If you want to deploy open office across your entire office that's fine, you want to build a database cluster using mysql or postgres and you feel confident your setup is just as reliable, scalable, and redundant as an oracle or sql server install, power to you. It's my opinion that neither is a good idea... Technically MySql and Postgres are way behind Oracle and Microsoft, especially in enterprise level functionality such as clustering, cpu scaling, and redundancy.

As for open office. It's docx still sucks (as of 3.1), sometimes it's doc support is still broken, it's still way slower, and the 16 bit calc limitation (was there last time I tried which I believe was just after version 3 came out) are deal breakers. And it is 'slow'. These are old but I couldn't find newer ones, regardless if you actually use both the difference is obvious.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=120
http://www.oooninja.com/2008/05/openofficeorg-getting-faster-benchmark.html

Same could be said for VMWare, vmware isn't open source but it's clearly better than the rest of the solutions in almost every way. I hope I don't have to back this one up as well. Install both or use google or something before you mindless zealots try claiming otherwise.

Convince your web design shop that photoshop and flash should be replaced with gimp and java. Go, run, and tell your friends.

@Andrew:

[I think in the end the point is missed]

Of course you are missing the point. You don't seem to be an IT professional.

[Yes let's all pass each other postgres database files when sending invoices....]

You don't pass database, you give them access. You supply them with the necessary tools to extract what they need in the for they want or desire. No need for CSV files. Besides, billing data is not something you pass along easily in a format to be easily changed by someone who is not supposed to.

Almost always, the practical way to work with such data is to extract what is needed and then manipulate it. Data that is not needed should not be included.

OOo Calc is one such a tool.

[As for open office. It's docx still sucks (as of 3.1), sometimes it's doc support is still broken,...]
At least, OOo is trying to be compatible with MS format while MS is refusing to be compatible with ODF even though many Governments and firms are demanding they do. And when the oblige, they do such a lousy job it is pathetic. Why don't you consider that as a flaw by MS Office?

I believe you still need a lot to learn.

Why would a MS Office user, or why should a user at all have to modify how he works to take into account limitations of software ?

Ans. THEY WONT.

and why should they.

MS Office and microsoft are not going anywhere, all governmet departments (virutally) use it.

Again SSC is NOT the NZ GOV purchasing department, they DO NOT have responsibility for ITC purchasing, thats the tresuary, and BTW; they still have contracts with MS.

Make OO.o good, and make it work and it will do well. but your hatred of MS is not going to put linux everywhere or anywhere.

oo.o does not do many many things that Office does, from embedded VB scripting to just working right, (I did not know it was slower, but thats a deal breaker as well).

Poor old FOSS has alot of problems, and issues, _**BIG**_ scary issues.

Most people are not extreemists, and most dont like to be associated with them. This is one of those FOSS "issues".

@Darryl:

You are missing the point again.

You want to use MS and only MS products, more power to you, it is your choice.

My response to your original post was not because I hate MS or their products, it was in response to your claim that FOSS is not up to par and has many problem. What I am telling is that, you are severely wrong and very ignorant about FOSS. I care less what you use or support, but when you try to spread mis-information, be prepared to be corrected.

You seem to defend MS as if you work for them or have vested interest. In a way, I too have interest in FOSS but I defend it for different reasons than yours. In addition to its quality software and cost savings, I like the Freedom, liberty and choice it offers, and all the things that MS has taken away from the consumers using its illegal monopoly and sleazy tactics.

If FOSS doesn't do the job for you, don't use it. Others see it as a perfect fit for them and don't like it when MS lackeys and zealots keep spreading FUD.

I hoping you don't miss this point too!

I am not from NZ to care about your taxes, but I do care about the taxes we pay here in the US where a good part of State and Fed Taxes end up going to MS deep pockets.