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Nvidia's spin borders on the truth

Analysis Q1 financial conference call was amusing
Friday, 8 May 2009, 23:55

THE NVIDIA Q1 financial conference call was the usual mix of overreaching self-congratulations and dodged questions. It sounds good on the surface, but if you know what is really going on, you wonder how they can say what they do and get away with it.

The call started off in the usual way, with CEO Jen-Hsun Huang doing the 'we are the greatest in categories we made up' thing. The hype was all about Physx, GPU compute, and mobile. All were said to be doing really well and are - just as they have been every quarter of the past two or three years - expected to explode real soon now.

If you recall, two summers ago, GPU compute was supposed to make up 5 per cent of Nvidia's sales by the summer of 2008, according to its Investor Relations propaganda. Summer 2008 rolled by, GPU compute sales were at 0.5 per cent, and no one was talking about the cost of those sales. The company claimed that there were none, that people were getting huge grants to use those products and, well... they just smiled. Intel said much the same about the Second Coming Itanium chip Itanic for years.

The same story applies to Tegra. It was supposed to have products using it out about three quarters ago, but now Nvidia is on the verge of almost nearly having products ready. Nvidia's executives won't say who the customers are, but they are huge, trust them, they've never lied about it before. Nope, 100 per cent honesty, just ask them.

Moving right along, you learn something new every day. When asked about how Ion was doing, Jen-Hsun reported a huge number, $180 Million. When asked about how that number was derived, check out his response to the question from analyst Rajvindra Gill.

RG: "Right, but are you including the 9400M that you are showing to Apple as the... as Ion or is this actually two-thirds of that $180 million design wins with other companies outside of Apple that are using Ion?"

J-H H: "We don't distinguish the two... I mean, it's the same processor from our perspective. The... we call it, the platform, Ion, and increasingly people are calling the chip Ion, and so we don't distinguish the two, whatever people want to call it. I mean, when people buy the chipset from us, they call it Ion. When they put it into the box and they brand it from the outside, because Geforce is such a terrific brand and contributes so much to the brand value of the end product, people call it Geforce. Do you see what I'm saying? So people buy the Ion but they sell it as a Geforce."

Who knew? Ion is not only a brand now, but it encompasses any Geforce integrated GPU. Wow. If I didn't know any better, I would say that this is a blatant attempt to inflate category numbers using intentionally misleading information. Luckily, the analyst in question is not so easily duped as Jen-Hsun might have hoped.

Then they go on to talk about Physx, and tout how it is a huge sales success. According to the conference call, there are all of two (2) games that use it. But one is just eye-candy. Wow, and the pipeline is full, just ask them. But don't ask game reviewers, they don't seem to agree.

They don't agree with Nvidia's take on this week's flavor of Ion either. Remember, this box has twice the CPU power of the one in the Revo. Can you say high return rate? Oddly, Nvidia didn't mention those numbers during the conference call.

So, as with all self-serving spin, the end result is in the bottom line. Nvidia didn't break everything out where possible, but for one where it is possible - the professional line - sales were flat, quarter over quarter. With desktop sales up 50 per cent, notebooks up 28 per cent, and AMD based chipsets up 94 per cent, zero percent growth in a market that is such a stunning success is... at least odd. One might almost be tempted to say that Jen-Hsun's statements are not backed up by the numbers, but that would be using facts, and Nvidia really hates it when you do that.

That brings us to the next thing, margins. Recently, Nvidia's margins were in the mid-40s. This quarter, analysts were expecting mid-30s. They came in at 28.6 per cent GAAP, 30.6 per cent non-GAAP. Whoopsie! It was half explained away, but I don't buy the explanation for a minute.

A much better explanation is what we have been hearing from OEMs for a couple of quarters now, that Nvidia seems to be addicted to marketshare and will try to maintain it even at the cost of cash losses. If you have cash to burn, that works out, but when times are tough, it gets a bit more scrutiny. Just ask the game developers who used to get sacks of TWIMTBP cash.

In any case, Nvidia's marketshare took a jump in Q1. What it is not telling you is that marketshare growth was mainly due to the company dumping about a million units of 65nm DX9 inventory that it had previously written off.

If you do the math, that is more than enough to make up for the marketshare unit gains. What is a bit more troubling is that the margins for discrete GPU sales were not disclosed. Using the numbers that Nvidia did give out, the totals don't add up unless GPU margins were about half of the overall corporate margins. That is bad. Bad bad bad. Your core business should not be struggling to have double-digit margins.

Why are the margins so low? It's simple, ATI has a better product that is cheaper to make. AMD can force prices down and still make money. ATI, the division, is making money, but Nvidia is not. But it is growing marketshare! Lose money on every one sold but make it up in volume is not a healthy long-term corporate strategy - it's an old Lucille Ball and Desi Arnez sitcom skit! You can't say we didn't tell you so. And think about this, consumer price levels for GPU parts and everything else are way down since that article was written. GPU prices are down about 30 per cent in just the last two months, for example.

However - margins, smargins - Nvidia is the leader in visual computing, at least until it makes up a new category. And to top it off, things are looking good. Once again, Jen-Hsun said that the 40nm ramp was doing well. To use his exact words: "Let's see... the ramp is going fine." Bullsh*t.

No really, bullsh*t. He should know better than to say that. The only reason it isn't dishonest is that he can sleaze his way out of what "fine" actually means. Nvidia was supposed to beat ATI out to market with 40nm parts. Nvidia was slated for November, ATI for December.

The ATI parts, the RV740 / HD4770 came out in May. The Nvidia GT216 / 218 were supposed to beat them out by a few weeks. Three months ago, the parts were supposed to have been out by this time. Right now, the updated schedule - due to a ramp that is going "fine" - targets June or July. Sources in the Far East say things are looking more like late June, and slipping.

Toss in that the GT300, another 40nm part, was delayed 'til 2010, and it makes you wonder what the Nvidia definition of "fine" is. Boils? Cafeteria food? If its 40nm ramp is "fine", so is the mess in Iraq. What I suspect is going on is that Nvidia hasn't been able to get its 40nm chips up to an economically viable yield.

The now dead GT212 was a die-shrink of the GT200b from 55nm to 40nm, basically a margin improvement part. It is not to be. The GT214 / 216 / 218s are basically GT200 derivative parts, but we are also hearing that they are shrunken G92s. In any case, the largest of them, the GT214, failed like the GT212. It was reworked with an eye toward actually functioning, and evolved into the GT215.

The problem here is that the 214 to 215 evolution took so much die area that it is unlikely to ever be profitable. If you can't make a 130mm^2 chip on 40nm, what hope do you have of doing a 500mm^2 part?

Yeah, the new savior chips are the old chips but smaller. Given they are now eight (8) months late, best case, and don't have GDDR5, it is unlikely that they will be profitable at competitive price points. Toss in abysmal yields, and the 2009 profit margins are more or less non-existent. Best-case timeframe for a competitive mid-range part, Q2 of 2010.

That brings us to the GT300. Jen-Hsun artfully dodged the DX11 Windows 7 question. Why? AMD is on record saying that it will have a DX11 part out for the Windows 7 launch, and our sources back this up. Nvidia will be, best case, almost two quarters late to the party. Let me repeat that, Nvidia will have no parts out for either the Windows 7 launch or Christmas, so it is all ATI this year.

How they can spin this as good is beyond us, especially if you know the performance levels of both parts. Nvidia's strategy of GPU compute is going to be impacting its performance this round, hard. Nvidia took a stupid strategy with the GT300, and that is going to bite it.

Graphics performance sells graphics cards, GPU compute does not. It may be an adder, but without a base, it goes nowhere. ATI will likely have derivative parts out before Nvidia has its first DX11 part in volume, and ATI's current die area and therefore cost advantage should carry over as well.

If all goes well, Nvidia can hope to start competing for marketshare again next spring. Until then, things are only going to get worse for the green team.

Nvidia's executives can spin the situation all they want, but all the analysts I talk with understand the credibility gap the company has by now and seems bent on expanding.

Nvidia is not competitive, and it has nothing in the pipeline that will fix the problem for the next three to four quarters. Until then, well... things look ugly at best for Nvidia. You can only spin so hard before you throw up. µ

 

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Comments
Good article.

I'll buy the fist *fast* 40nm gfxcard that hits the marked, and it sure seems like AMD will grap my money this time.

posted by : Pete, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
Rumbled...

Have to admit that, despite Charlie's un-naturally ability to focus on just one thing (to the point of fanaticism), he has got this story well and truly nailed.

Not having DX11 on time will be a massive blow, thank God that Intel won't have a brand new DX11 part in the market and a marketing budget that will make 'saving a banking institution' look highly affordable

Hope that nothing in this report will actually cause people within nVidia to be sued for non-disclosure, especially after the HP-chip-shaft debacle

posted by : Chris Evenden, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
Interesting take on things...

For someone who hates nvidia so much, you sure get on their shiet about every little thing... hmm, you sounding more like a stalker.

posted by : haha, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
hit the nail on the head.

Everything you read in this article will come true.

Nvidia are tanking horribly and they are so far behind with 40nm and g300 its unbelievable.

The whole coming year from nvida will be all about spin, rebranding and trying to hold on to as much market share as they can.

posted by : jamahl, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
PHYSX

someone need to put an end to charlie's ignorance regarding physx supported titles.

http://physx.cwx.ru/

currently there are 135 physx games released. not "2", but 7 of them already are GPU accelerated (17 PPU accelerated). at least 36 in development. while AT LEAST 16 of them will be GPU accelerated.

you better start getting used to the fact that you gonna loose visual content or suffer performance issues, when you go the ATI route.
GPU Havok (via opencl) will work with geforce too, so all in all, you end up with less.

posted by : applejack, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
RE: PHYSX

The admittedly large roster of PHYSX titles needs to be put into the context of what PHYSX does for the game.
There are things like the UT maps that utilise PHYSX to create particles that any serious player would turn off as a pointless distraction.
Then there are titles like Mirror's Edge, where you do see a real, and enjoyable, difference between with and without PHYSX.
Finally, there are games that are either unplayable, or where you lose a lot, without PHYSX. I'm not sure that there are actually any games in this category.

posted by : Matthew Amirault, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
Factual Error

The error is not in the analysis, or the Nvidiot slamming which is well deserved. It is not even in the malicious chuckling I can envision Charlie doing while writing this up...

The "I'm losing money on every X I sell! How do you make any money? Volume! Volume!" bit goes back way before that screeching nuisance. Check Marx Brothers, George Burns, and a whole litany of Vaudeville performers before them...

posted by : Whatever, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
nvidia

not sure I can buy nvidia products anymore since they refuse to fix their vista graphics drivers

nvlddmkm stopped responding in Windows Vista, Vista Driver Problem

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=25381

posted by : crackers, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
Shortbread

Charlie's articles are the bread and butter of the internet, it wouldn't be the same without them would it?

Come 2020 we will still be here reading these same articles, with Nvidia and ATI both still going strong, with Nvidia going out of business "any day now.... Just you wait and see!"

posted by : bonkers, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
@Crackers

If i post a link to a 2 year old thread about ATI issues will that make you not buy ATI products anymore?

posted by : citin, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
issue

It is a major issue affecting many thousands of people. It should have been fixed 2 years ago.

posted by : crackers, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
@Crackers

Its a hardware issue, get a new card, y r u using vista anywhere with a old pc.

posted by : ValiumMm, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
I do not care, I am not addicted

Though I hate NVIDIA for their Nvsvc32, for their mess with faulty 84x, 86x chips and falling share prices of last 2 days I may still buy my next laptop with their new next gen 280M graphics chip which is 3-4 times faster then 9600M and are 5-10 times faster then my current laptop's ATI 2600 with 512MB which is just 7-8 months old.

Or it will be laptop with AMD/ATI graphics if it will met better by reviewers.

As to the NVDA performance, i will repeat "Nobody can predict the market" you will mostly fail if you think you can. If you think you can then short their shares and be happy. Charlie, didn't you? If not, then, seriously, you are total idiot, retard, moron, ass#$%l and I do not care what you write anymore. Tell us

Slava

posted by : SV, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
hardware

My 8800 GTS is only about 1.5 yrs old approx. That is not new, but I don't think it is old. I don't think a GPU should have problems within 2 yrs....

I've never had anything other than nvidia before, but I think it is time to give ATI a try.

The problem only really occurs in graphics intensive games and the only "fix" I've found so far is to turn down the graphics settings in the game. :(

posted by : crackers, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
Inten and nvidia

Nvidia's shady accounting and soaping the eyes is becoming one to the likes of Intel. Those two should merge and run each other into the ground with their creative tactics. I'm no business major, but is liquidating the merchandise that has been written off at a loss into the marketplace even legal from an accounting point of view?

posted by : diesel, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
spin

What a pathetic twisted load of bollocks come out of Charlie's weasel brain. Nvidia has 70% of the discrete GPU market and dominates workstation as well. Debt free and cash in the bank they will weather the recession far better than AMD ATI who's been drowning in red ink for years, in spite of Charlies hallucinations.

posted by : beck24, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
Jen Hsun may have a plan

I think what he's trying to do is keep the customers loyal to nvidia throughout the recession. So that when they actually start making money after the recession they'll still have the market share.

posted by : ssj4Gogeta, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
who cares....

I want 60fps in every game i play at the highest detail possible for a *good* price. GPU Compute is a cherry and, hey, if Physx give me more immersion, then great, I'll take it. nVidia gives me this right now. Until ATI can, I'll buy nVidia. When ATI can, I'll buy ATI.

posted by : dave, 09 May 2009 Complain about this comment
ATi @ FTW

i got to admit ATi is coming back with a vengeance, since Nv's been cooking things.

$$$ we shall see better value for performance, i just don't want to pay over $400 dollars to see some decent sh!t, ATi is did a great job on delivering what is needed for us, cheap and great!!!

posted by : Nvidian, 10 May 2009 Complain about this comment
@Matthew & Tegra

Grass in a game is a distraction too, but anyone would prefer it along with trees and reflections.

As far as Tegra goes, Charlie should check out Asus with his "sources"

posted by : Alex Cross, 10 May 2009 Complain about this comment
nVidia's future is totally secure!

I might also add:-

1) The UK government's system for MP's expenses is wholesome and fair

2) Nuclear power's safe

3) The world is flat

4) I'm from Microsoft and I'm here to help you

posted by : Ed Indasand, 10 May 2009 Complain about this comment
@ Slava

You realise that 'next gen' GTX280M is just a rebadged 9800GTX+ ?

posted by : lol, 11 May 2009 Complain about this comment
Rant....

all rant.... whats the point of this article?

posted by : what, 11 May 2009 Complain about this comment
Reality

Look, I bought the spin. I own a 790i ultra 2xSLI rig with a 1xPPU and I'm here to tell you it has been nothing but heartache. I so really wanted it all to work out. But in the end its a pile of fragile hardware and drivers.

My $2500 nvidia rig only scores about 100 or so marks better than my $960 dollar Phenom 2 Crossfire rig.

It's about the hassles for me. I spend HOURS tuning the nvidia system just to be stable when the ATI/AMD rig just works albeit just a little slower.

I agree with most of you, its all about the drivers and nvidias suck.

posted by : Axiomatic, 11 May 2009 Complain about this comment
You Are wrong again !

I remember the time when Charlie nearly swore that Nvidia will never succeed in designing a dual chip out of the GT200 processor because of heat and power consumption limitations .

his argument was so sound and so rational that every ignorant fanboy here believed it and received it as the only truth .

of course Nvidia released GTX295 and it has lower temperature and power consumption than 4870X2 , and it gave back the crown of performance to Nvidia .

my point is , Charlie's bulls are always wrong , because he is always trying to prove something , he is always looking at things from a biased view , and that costs him his credibility .

you know why I think charlie is left ranting without consequences , I think you are a tool in the hands of Nvidia to fool the competitors .

good luck with that , tool !

posted by : DavidGraham, 13 May 2009 Complain about this comment
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