Intel needs a console deal to get Larrabee off the ground

Actually PS4 will still use the Cell, but called Cell2. You can get more information on the PS4 here:

http://www.edepot.com/playstation4.html

What I don't like about this price.

With introducing yet another piece of hardware into the mix is that it takes even longer to port to other platforms, more time to learn new code, and having different API's to work with different hardware. 

This reminds me of the old 3DFX Glide and the first DX that came out. Having two or three (OpenGL) takes longer to code to write for drivers, more code all around and it all takes time and money to do. 

Intel should be working on having their card meet the current programming standards, not the other way around.

Developer X you nailed this whole debate incredibly well and your absolutely right if that was going to be the case the dev kits would be out already. I have no problem in conceding to the fact I was wrong in that respect, however I do stand by the fact that Larrabee from a technical standpoint is a huge flop already at least in its initial inception it will be and that Intel had better write some dam good direct x api drivers or its doomed period! 

Thanks for bringing up that very valid point Developer X.

Uhm, before you tell people to Google maybe you can do some yourself:

TIm Sweeney Likes Larrabee

http://www.gamespot.com/hardware/blogs/hardware-insider/909185655/26524729/tim-sweeney-likes-larrabee.html?board_id=909185655&topic_id=26524729&news_site_blog=true

Dreamworks and Carmack Discuss 3D and Threading At IDF
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/21/186209

...and stop throwing your "credentials" around. It's the most embarrassing and idiotic kind of posturing there is.

Its the games that make a console, and that currently means Nintendo.

No Intel, AMD nor ATI in sight.

No fancy graphics can make up for shite game play.

This is why the WII has the market.

and all in standard definition basic graphics.

I can't wait for the barrage of flamings. But that won't change the facts, the WII is number one.





The next Xbox will not be out in 2010. They are not doing a 5 year cycle for 360. You can read MANY comments from prominent middleware providers that clearly state the next console iteration of their products won't be available until 2011 or 2012.

The original Xbox was dumped because it did not have proper cost reduction built into the design. The current Xbox does (which is why it's now the price leader). Furthermore, the old Xbox never made money. The Entertainment and Devices division has been profitable since last year. There is no reason to rush a money loosing console when they are making money every quarter.

Furthermore, they would not be talking about chips for a console release that's going to happen in 2 years. Developers would have early dev kits already. And I can tell you, there aren't any Xbox 3 dev kits around.

Yeah, what you said!

if that guy Rory can trully see in to the future to understand how unreleased, unproven tech works compared to other unlreased unprove tech from someone else, we should all give him a job...

course the world would be a crap place if you knew what was around every corner


Amm did gabe have a point.. stop wasting ppls time by posting nonsense about nothing. Anyways Intel graphics LOL, lets see some parts and lets see some drivers and lets see it run on any game, not some "optimized" nonsense. I have a 3750 and I can play games from 8 years ago. Intel CPUs FTW, Intel GPS ????

Who cares about that deal? So what? M$ would not go in that boat without having a sneaky way to make things work. No matter what, advancement is never screwed over by flops. Intel is not the only one running the race, so there is no reason to start loosing your precious glasses over a coffee.

-D

Your right Gabe I should of used paragraphs but when one is confined to posting in a little box its easy to loose track of what one is typing. There is such a thing as over paragraphing though and you have just clearly demonstrated that. Why am I am fanboi when I am just speaking the truth? I don't love AMD/ATI, I don't love any of the hardware manufacturers for that matter.

I am an engineer, I have friends who are engineers and this is what we can conclude so far. These are just the facts so lets go through them shall we.

- To compile for the Larrabee architecture is not the same as compiling for pre-existing IA x86 architecture. You will need to learn a new variant of the C language to do so. 

Already from that one point alone its clear Larrabee is not a walk in the park although like CUDA and OPEN CL its not out of the realm of being to acquire the knowledge to do this intel will no doubt make it as easy as they can. The real question is will there be a a compelling reason to do so. Hence why it needs a console to basically force developers to do so. 

- The x86 architecture can not and will not scale well into the future, it was never designed with highly parallel tasks in mind and is inferior to handling highly parallel tasks compared to the GPU. 
GPU's are already at 2.49 teraflops and ati has a dedicated hardware tessellator and a raytracing path through the direct x 9 api, so this whole intel is the future for raytracing is just a fallacious statement and its lame. 
You can even raytrace on nvidia's cards but its a bit more difficult without a hardware tessellator.

- Game developers such as notable ones from epic have publicly spoken out in the past about why intel is bad for gaming and should pull out of the discreet market and intergrated graphics all together. 
Just google it I am not going to hold your hand and give you the links. 

My mate is a game developer, ask any game developer and since 2002 onwards its become really clear to most that intel is not good for gaming. Look what happened with the Jupiter engine in fear, it was fully CPU independent and as a result using a celeron CPU compared to a high end intel cpu of the time made 4 frames per second difference. (information you can also find on the net) Developers are pressured to keep their games CPU bound and when Nvidia and havok tried to make physics GPU rather than CPU bound intel flipped out and bought havoc, hence why nvidia bought ageia. 

I am over writing this just open your eyes and and look for yourselves on the internet about the contract AMD had to sign with intel that states it can't even sell its own company to whoever it likes and so on. 

Its really sad that people react in this way when you try to point out this stuff. Because at the end of the day its only us and developers (especially developers) that are suffering. Most developers have switched to consoles because its just impossible to scale for all the pc hardware out there now, consoles although hardware limited in some respect allow developers to deliver a consistent experience to gamers and one that they just know will work. 

Intel, Nvidia, AMD, ATI have all failed their own industry, they failed to introduce some hardware standards for developers to use as guidelines and the industry is just in tatters as a result. There is no continuity and again just look on the net and you will see developers have openly expressed this. 


Im not a fanboi just an engineer who follows gaming as an avid interest on the side, who also has mates actively working in the industry its pretty apparent the only ones who a suffering through all this are the game developers. Its quite hilarious actually that these people are the ones who actually are responsible for all the amazing games that we play and yet they are the silent minority when it comes to deciding standards and continuity across the hardware industry, it makes no sense its madness in fact. (braces for a rapacious onlsaught of hate comments) In fact the only one who has ever bought any continuity and API standards to the table is microsoft with its hardware agnostic direct X, forcing these nutcase hardware manufactuers to conform to some standard that the industry has to follow allowing us to move forward and developers the chance to focus on building games rather than compiling for 20 different standards. 

Like I said its the developers that are the only ones suffering.

On a final point I would like to commend AMD/ATI on their AMD LIVE service for trying to bring a standard to pc hardware for consumers and developers to follow, ATI consistent embrace of future technologies such as hardware tessellation(coming in direct x 11) raytracing via the dx 9 api, and direct x 10.1. Thank you for giving developers the chance to use the latest API feature set. Developers don't appreciate (nvidia for example) telling them direct x 10.1 is irellevent its not! There are some clear benefits to be had especially in anti-aliasing and every hardware manufacturer should support the latest API's to allow developers to decide whats best for them to use. Again providing proper tools for the people that are actually responsible for making these games after all. 

I hope that was paragraphed enough for you gabe and my point was made a little clearer this time :P

Holy block of text batman! Rory do use a favor please and in the future make paragraphs.

That possibly interseting and infromative post of yours will unlikely be read cause a persons eyes would likey pop out and run for cover at the sight of such a jumble of text.

That said, Larabee is not out in any phyical form a of yet for people to develop to, yet you contend "Larrabee is already a flop people just don't realise it!" ?

Beyond that you seem to think x86 is somehow nigh impossible to program towards and having Intel produce a different kind of graphics as to what in common now will some how cause the entire industry to self destruct.

I'll have you know that the graphics industry has done a fairly good job of disintergrating on it's own with intel only shipping IGP produst that are in no way ment to "play games" in any serious mannor.

Beyond that how is using x86 as a platform a bad thing for the next next-gen consoles?

As it stands now what "code" do you think game developers use to make their games? probally a form of C I'd wager.

You assume too much in regards the idle speculation on what parts might find their way into market and be considered for use in upcomming consoles.

Do you really think the big 3 console makers really would help to wipe out nvidia and ati, to only be left with intel of all people?

If that was the case intel would surely make their part much more expensive in the light of no one else being viable.

They have it bad enough that IBM and ATI run 2 of the 3 consoles on the market now and ibm being part of the "Cell" processor design IBM can claim all 3.

You say " X86 architecture is draconian! They have ruined laptops as viable gaming rigs as well as desktops"

While I'll say OEM's that have ODMs' built PC's and Laptops with low power gpus do all of the ruination here.

Companys like cheap chips and "joe shmo' like cheap pc's and intels IGPs are very cost effective and allow laptops to actually run on a battery smaller that the one that cranks a car.

Gaming on low end pcs and laptops was never in the history of gaming "viable".

Not since the days of duke nukem and fallout running on dos have the been games that didn't push gamers into graphic card that do proper 3d in order to make gaming "viable"

If you want a gaming laptop you can go and but a $6000 XPS "tabletop" and play any game you want. Intel does nothing to make that unviable.

If you don't want all that size and heat, not to mention minute long battery life blame nvidia and ati/amd cause gaming on their GPUs, moblie or otherwise generates heat and sucks juice.

You claim "an unproven architecture that's does a signinifcantly worse job than todays highly specialised GPU'S for parallel processes". 

Yet intel has based "larabee on the most proven of technologies.

Intel used x86 and a modified pentium core design in a hugly parallel multi-core setup.

You say "I am pegging AMD because intel will never be able to leverage that sort of graphics performance and AMD has the x86 chips to back it up."

So are we suddenly to believe AMD will make a better implemented use of x86 over Intel when Intel make some of the best compliers in the industry and has far far greater resources then AMD by your own admission?

Did you ever stop to consider that microsoft and sony got the royal shaft this round by allowing nintendo to realease a supremely underpowered Wii and rake in the profits, while at the same time deal with all of the cost of making a cutting edge system and trying to recoup on the software sales?

Nintendo totally reversed the business model for the console industry by making a profit from the start. They don't have to worrie one bit if they never ever sell a single game for their system ever because they make money on every console sold.

Microsoft and even more so Sony cringe at the idea of somehow making back their lossed on software licenses for the games developers make. 

This process take years and demands that each of them make design choices to allow them to be at the cutting edge of what is out as to allow themselves a expected lifespan in which their respective console is viable to allow them years of game sales.

Otherwise they will have to follow Nintendo's lead and produce low cost hardware and damn innovation for sake of profit.

If intel has a "better" part, it will be used.

For you "better" might mean a entirely different thing than what is does to a console make.

Oftentime cheaper is better, as seen with Microsoft's RRoD debacle. only here they went so cheap as to allow quality to suffer to the point of failure.

Alas, in the end nothing is available on the market and wont be for years to come so you hopefully see were I find fault with much of what you said.

better still to know that in the future you might conside the whole picture instead of resorting to fanboi-ism by spouting out huge blocks out painful to read text full of hard to defend reasons why something is or is not a "flop" as it were.

It's amazing how little one could know before talking so damn much.

Looking at the noise reminds me of toddlers throwing tantrums at things it only understood as "me no like".

I would have thought a tech journalist would know the difference between programme and program?

Silly Sylvie!

Why on earth would Sony want Larrabee for a GPU, when the Cell itself has GPU-like qualities.

By 2013(ish) when PS4 is due, the Cell arch will be Cell2, with more SPU's more cache and faster interconnect bus (and maybe even dual or quad PPE's).

Why would Sony cripple themselves by taking on a new GPU, when they can basically extend the Cell to the PS4 is merely a evolution of the PS3 abiet a more powerful one. In short, they took this hit this generation, it will pay dividends next-gen.

The concept of this chip being desirable for a console is laughable at best. A GPU gets much of the same API bending abilities while getting to retain the vastly more efficient FF units. The developers then load balance their games around these HIGHLY efficient units which plays well to a GPU's strengths and completely negates Larrabee's strengths.

Isn't that Dual Core 360 dies? Or Wait, Melt Two 360 Together!
Why NOT Steal Number of some power, like XBox 1080? Well, Microsoft is supposed to be developing multi core software, so BANG!There Goes Microsoft!

How 
About 
Family Pack 1080 for Grand. Christmas couldn't be Greener.Oh,well, BIT stuck In Rut!

Or step up to ALL 'N WONDER w/ Power Burner Bui. Bui (Word Owned By THOMAS) stands for Butane Powered of Course. Refilable Blu computing.FOR HEAVY FIBRE GAMING
drashek

Rory do you perchance work for AMD/ATI or something? cos thats some mighty venomous anti Intel Pro AMD stuff your spouting there.

pcfanboy, you do actually understand the whole concept of capitalism dont you? It's a corporations sole purpose to try to "capitalise" on every market they can possibly enter, have as many fingers in as many pies as possible so you are not reliant on one product for your revenue.

Stop talking shite people ... you don't know what you are talking about

Guys. You launched the Centrino platform. You basically killed all other laptops. Why can't you launch your own PC gaming platform with an Intel CPU, Intel chipset and Larrabee? Why do you have to get your chip into a console crapbox, so we can enjoy getting Larrabee-specific games written for the same hardware for ten years?

You're the only ones we have big enough to take these suckers on, and the red and green teams are more than content to suck the console makers' thumbs - please, stand for something. I'm just about ready to give up here.

That'd be great for Microsoft. Maybe some competent hardware engineers could make sure the console doesn't overheat like the current one.

Larrabee being easy to compile for is a fallacious statement. Larrabee requires you to learn a higher level C language derivitive just like CUDA, OPENCL, the easiest transition so far looks like microsoft compute shaders coming in direct x 11, but alas its not as flexible as the previous two mentioned. No doubt larrabee will make its way into the xbox 720 and no doubt it will be a complete disaster giving ps4 the upper hand it needs. ITS like going backwards by embracing the IA x86 architecture for graphics. Seriously there is a reason GPUs do exist and how they are far better at highly parallel tasks than x86 architecture. Okay lets have general purpose hardware using brute force with software API's all over the place slowling things down. Its why windows is such a troll and intel just announced a dedicated DSP audio processor its not viable for all software and General purpose architecure, highly dedicated hardware can evolve almost indefinitely why do we keep going back to this GP hardware and software stacks or API's for everything its madness! God the computer industry is just getting worse and worse! We have games such a crysis and stalker clear skys, that even the latest generation graphics card cant run at high resolutions with the latest bells and whistles. The video card industry will stagnate just like the CPU has under intel and it will a complete disaster if intel wins. If computer hardware was truely making quantum leaps and developers could truely compile games for some serious hardware then we would see the PC stay dominant in its own right, but with turdvidia not even embracing the latest direct x api what hope have we got. The hardware manufactuers are killing innovation and true computer power. Intel is more of a threat to the PC industry than anyone else ever has and ever will be. The X86 architecture is draconian! They have ruined laptops as viable gaming rigs as well as desktops. Imagine if consoles were never born and developers only had pc's to to compile games for. The gap in discrete and onboard is so large now its almost impossible to scale games accordingly. Larrabee is going to be a huge flop and anyone in the know knows it because there are just to many software layers and an unproven architecture that's does a signinifcantly worse job than todays highly specialised GPU'S for parallel processes. Being an engineer helps a lot I can see that this is going to be an absolute disaster and going forward its going to be AMD and Nvidia that finally reign supreme.I am pegging AMD because intel will never be able to leverage that sort of graphics performance and AMD has the x86 chips to back it up. Although intel has started poaching staff from ATI and nvidia but hopefully to many won't leave because in the long run intel is going to be on the slide and its going to be so hilarious to watch! They are bigger bullies in the industry than microsoft has ever been, ask any AMD employee how bad it is AMD can't even sell their FABS because intel can tell them what to do and who to do it with. Goodbye intel I cant wait for your agnosing death. 

Perhaps Intel could corporate to put Larrabee to Wii2 :D. If everyone has learn that wii success is not from state of the art hardware, then the next gen console will be not to fast.

So we are still watching as AMD is taking Intel to court for spending a little extra to convince the competition to go with Intel processors in many a project...

And Intel is now offering this to Intel? Lawsuit 2.0??