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This press conference has reached critical mass. We've enough journalists - Intel Spin Doctor
Nvidia changes desktop G86 for no reason
A FEW WEEKS ago, VR-Zone posted a story about Nvidia issuing a Product Change Notification (PCN) about G86 desktop chips and underfill materials. Days later, it strangely disappears, but now is back with an 'explanation' from Nvidia PR appended.
Why is Nvidia so afraid of this information getting out? Easy, it basically proves they are not telling the truth once again about the defective chips fiasco. We asked them for a copy of the PCN, but they declined, but luckily we ran into lots of people who had it at IDF, and we took copious notes.
With that, lets take you through, point by point, the Nvidia 6 page PDF that they issued as a PCN. Page 5 is blank, and Page 6 is the standard legal disclaimer, so we will skip those. The PCN is dated May 22, 2008 on the bottom of pages 2-5, July 25 on the bottom of Page 1, and Page 6 is undated. The first big problem is that it is entitled "G86 Desktop Products" with a subtitle " Change Namics 8439-1 Underfill material to Hitachi 3730". Above that there is " Product/Process Change Notice", the usual NDA only disclaimer.
Remember how Nvidia swore up and down that desktop parts were flat out not affected? Remember how we said that all G84 and G86s were because they were the same ASIC? I guess they decided to change this underfill material to better color coordinate with the substrate hues, given the cost of testing, qualification and other work that needs to be done, you certainly wouldn't want to change it for no good reason. The old one worked just fine, right? Not defective either, they said so. Then again, they said the problem was contained to HP as well.
The official Nvidia explanation is that if you change one SKU, you change them all, so this isn't a big deal. Testing and validation costs be damned, you take a 'working' and near EOL part and change it on a whim because they changed another part. OEMs love that, as do stockholders.
The problem is that this story doesn't wash either. If the original desktop G86s are not affected, there is no reason to change, they work and you are only adding cost and risk, as well as likely more expensive materials. There is no way they would take on this cost if it wasn't necessary. That means the desktop chips were bad as well, and needed changes, validating our original story from early July.
On to page two, there is another whopper, but first they repeat that this is a PCN, and the title has not changed from Page 1. The first bombshell is spread out over three boxes entitled, PCN Submit Date:, Planned Implementation Date:, and Proposed First Ship Date:. They are July 25, 2008, Immediate, and July 25, 2008 respectively.
Why is this important? Well, it shows that the companies knew there was a problem, they made a change, and the change didn't start shipping until a month after they said it was all fixed. This seemingly flat out contradicts their 8-K statement,
But I am sure they will come up with a slick PR reason why if you stretch your imagination and squint, they do line up. either way, if you bought an Nvidia product before July 25, it looks like you probably bought a defective one. Given that the 25th was the start ship date, that means the parts were not going to end users for a bit after that, so you probably aren't safe until mid-August.
In any case, this explains why Dell and the rest would not answer the question of "Is the one I bought since the announcement defective or is it good? " and "Are you still shipping defective parts?" They wouldn't answer here and here and here because they knew that statements like "We are still shipping defective parts to customers," and "you bought a lemon," don't go over well.
The next box is titled "Change Category:", and there are two option check boxes, "Class 1 Change - Major (Customer Approval Required)", and "Class 2 Change - Customer Notification Only". It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this one had Class 1 checked. I wonder how they are going to spin the whole 'it is only minor, you are reading too much into this' in light of that? It is going to be funny to watch in any case.
The next box is "Required Distribution:", and all four boxes, Sales, Marketing, Materials/Planning, Others (Quality and Assembly Engineering) are checked. I guess they meant it when they said it was Major.
Then there is a box with "Attention, for Class 1 Change:" with three bullet points. The first is "Customer should acknowledge the PCN as soon as possible", then "Lack of acknowledgment of the PCN prior to the Proposed First Ship Date constitutes acceptance of the change", and finally "If customer does not accept this change, or would like to work with NVIDIA to change the First Ship Date, please contact your local Sales representative or Program Manager immediately". Yup, nothing to see here, nothing major to worry about, you just need to sign off as a formality. That is the story, and they are sticking to it.
The last box lists affected parts, and has two chips, G86-303-A2 and G86-103-A2, and one kit, G86-213-A2. Told ya so.
Page 3 has three parts, Proposed Change Information, Implementation and Qualification Plan, and Product Marking and Traceability. PCI has three parts, and two of them are whoppers with some truly precious hidden gems. They are, " Description of Change " which says, "NVIDIA will transition from using Namics 8439-1 underfill material to Hitachi 3730 underfill material for the G86 Desktop product skus only." This is followed by "Reason For Change " which says "To increase supply and enhance package robustness," and "Impact of Change (form, fit, function, quality or reliability): " that reads, "There will be no adverse change to form, fit, function or reliability. "
Let's look this closely. The description is pretty obvious, nothing to see here, move along kiddies. The big one is the reason, and it has two parts, the one most people focus on is the part about enhancing package robustness. Now if there was no problem in desktop parts, why is packaging robustness in such dire need of change? And if it really does that, why does the Impact box say there are "no adverse change to form, fit, function or reliability". Correct me if I am wrong, but do they really need to say "this one won't be a lemon guys" that directly?
The most telling statement is the first half of the Reason box, and that is "To increase supply." This means that either Nvidia was having enough problems getting the Namics 8439-1 underfill that it was limiting their ability to make chips, desktop only mind you, or there are enough defects to drag the yield rate into the toilet. Guess which one it is, Nvidia will likely say it is a supply problem, it can't admit failures that high.
The "Implementation and Qualification Plan" says that "Qualification data is available on request", with two sub boxes saying that both the data and qual samples are available now. Guess that means you can get them to test with.
Product Marketing and Traceability is the bottom of Page 3 and most of Page 4. Unfortunately it is a diagram, and our artistic abilities would not allow us to take sufficient notes to re-create it. The text in three paragraphs, two above, one below the diagram, reads as follows. "Product with the eutectic bump will be denoted with an 'R' appended to the end of the lot number in the 4th line. This will not change. The box label will have the 'F' after the lot number for identifying product with Hitachi underfill change," then "During the transition period, traceability will be maintained by NVIDIA. Please contact your Program Manager if a list of affected batch numbers or shipments is required."
Finally below the picture, "For identifying product with Hitachi underfill material, refer to the box label and the lot # on the box will have the letter 'F' as the last character of the lot #."
Lots of words there, but the short story is that if you have a chip, it doesn't seem like you can tell which underfill material you have. The R for eutectic bumps, a significant change that we will discuss in a later article, seems to be the only thing on the chips. The box F label will never make it to the end user, so there doesn't seem to be a way to figure out if you have a lemon or not, other than potentially date of purchase. In any case, if you have access to the box your GPUs shipped in, you can figure this out.
The next box is titled "Recommended Action" and says "No customer qualification required. For additional data or questions, please contact your Program Manager." Below that there is a box titled "NVIDIA Contact " which is split into two boxes that say, "In case of questions, please contact your local Sales representative or Program Manager." and "Change approval can be done through NVIDIA Website: http://partners.nvidia.com/. "
Closing out Page 4, we have the "PCN revision history", and it says "Date: 7/25/08," "Revision: A", and "Reason: Initial Release." As stated earlier, Page 5 is blank, Page 6 has a legal disclaimer.
In the end, this is one of the smoking guns. Nvidia flat out denied that there were any desktop part that were defective, but now they are changing materials to "enhance package robustness." I guess you do that on a whim. I wonder how the SEC will square that with the 8-K which said, "MCP and GPU products that are impacted were included in a number of notebook products." ยต
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Well, until they prove to me that they have their manufacturing processes and materials under control, I and my company will NOT be purchasing any more NVidia parts, either as part of a system, or as individual parts.

Screw you, NVidia, for being such a bunch of dishonest liars!

It's a non-event Charlie, give it up already. You clearly know nothing about semiconductor manufacturing and reliability, and it's a crime that you try and pass yourself off as knowledgeable. For all your sky-is-falling, anyone-who-owns-one-of-these-ought-to-be-shoving-it-up-nvidia's-arse crap, there is little end user impact. That axe you're grinding has got to be getting close to nub size.
My G84 part (nVidia 8600GTS) only runs stable if I under clock the thing?

most people who are angry with nvidia is not because they have the defective product... but it's because they're skeptical for having defective product thanks to the news like these...

have you ever wondered? what IF nvidia is telling the truth but the media telling otherwise? would you believe nvidia or the media?

I'm sorry... but I guess I rather believe nvidia with their small percentage defective product... unless they can prove that the return rate of such laptops because of chipset defect is more than what nvidia claims... I never be a fan of conspiracy theory...

it's all the same problem when DELL having exploding laptop problem, Xbox 360 with 3 RROD, Ipod with over heating battery, etc etc... 

If you can run a company without having a problem... wow... maybe you're a god...
That's why I bought my HD 2600 XT. Nvidia has never respected their consumers, they lie about everything...
And they also lower the price of graphic cards in the launch day so that reviewers can say that Nvidia has a good cost x benefit mark, telling that that card is the best for the given price... And when you look for it in the next few weeks, the price is damn high.
Company of liars...
as opposed to being honest liars?
all this playing around and bs explanations from nvidia worth nothing.They will have to take the responsibility of their defective chips.
I myself have been using ATI cards for 3 years and im more than happy wth them.
i will never ever buy a nvidia product as long as im alive or mentally healthy.
More of the dirt continues to surface. I'm going ATI all the way. In fact, I feel so strongly about this that, rather than buy a Macbook Pro and get an NV GPU, I'm going with a pre owned Powerbook G4 that is equipped with an ATI GPU. No thanks NV. I need GPU's that work!!
it seems to make the case that nvidia's manufacturing partner is the guilty party...
The G86 (used in the desktop 8400 GS) went out of production late last year and was replaced with the G98 in January. Actual products may not have arrived in stores before april - may? I bought mine 12:th of July.
At least fill is being changed to Hitachi. Is Hitachi better?So there NOT same!?
STeWie drashek
if you dont get a faulty chip, at least nvidia provides decent working drivers. 

ati drivers are horrible in my experience, only bested by their customer support; forever their response to me was "we think you have a problem......somewhere...."

my x1950pro was a fiasco: each new driver release yielded worse and buggier performance. also my video card's documentation was horrible. after a year of owning the card a little birdy told me you needed at least some 20a or so on a 12v rail. youve been nice to know this prior.

my friend gets better fps using only one of the two 3870s he bought.

nvidia with me is the less of the two evils, at least regarding the end user.
I have had 3 notebooks (company and personal) affected by this nvidia junk. surprisingly enough, consumer laws don't really protect the consumer against this type of BS except that companies like HP will offer 'incentives' like a 10% discount on the next HP / nVidia POS you buy from them which defeats the point of the consumer being in control. Look at the whole creative MP3 player megabyte lawsuit, what kind of resolution is it for the same company to walk away from justice just by offering consumers to upgrade at a discount from their next [expletive deleted] product?
HP is retarded, nvidia is retarded and make no mistake, most OEM/ODMs are absolutely idiotic and lie through their teeth at every opportunity, i've worked for enough of them to know the truth.
Welcome to corporatism the new fascism here in America (and the entire west for that matter), where corporations have more power and rights than individuals. Guess who gets screwed.

That's alright for now though because what they haven't thought of is where they're going to run when the lynch mob is chasing them down the street.
There is another article here which is quite informative:
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/39045/135/

Nice to see another journalist doing some investigation. Nvidia really polarizes people into loving or hating them. I guess 10+ years of buying $500 graphic card induces a kind of "capture bonding". For the haters perhaps some kind of "fundamental attribution error" or "correspondence bias".

Likely wont be fixed till graphic cards become more a commodity ie cheaper. 
Just sounds like common sense to me. If you know a material is not up to snuff and may cause problems (note the word may) you swap it out before it becomes a mess. Smart business.

Until I see a mass charge for desktop chips, or start to see mass failures of them, this is pure BS. Not much different than any company releasing a new spin of a product. 

Intel/AMD etc all release new spins constantly of old products. Reducing power, getting better yields etc. It's just common sense. If I know a material is passing, but I can replace it with something much better perhaps cutting failures from 5% to 2% (or whatever) why would I not do it? It's not costly. It's like changing cheese brands on a cheeseburger from McDonalds. Does the next rev of an Intel chip mean all others that came before it are faulty? Should AMD recall all Barcelona chips just because they can't figure out how to hit 2.7ghz? No you still sell them, but you have to mark them lower. Big deal.

Stupid business would be to ignore anything you can fix easily and cheaply.
Is it legal to sell a product to customers that you believe will go wrong?

The customer is believing the product is ok, NVidia are also reassuring customers that the products are ok even though NVidia know different. Is this legal?

Dell etc are also aware the products are below standard, should they also tell their customers?

The maker who puts their hands up and informs the customers and offers replacement/repair with a non-defective part, that is the maker that will stand out as the good guy in all of this. Most likely to get a new bunch of customers, and become known as the company "on our side".
Too bad they didn't googled
"Selecting the Appropriate Tg for Underfill"

70 C. degree Tg! You must be kidding. Is this chip requires fridge to operate?

Also too bad they didn't read the first google entry named

"Effect of Underfill Materials on Pb-Free Flip Chip Package"
Sounds like you and your friend need to do more reading before flopping a load of cash on the counter. Or is it just me who still researches their purchases first?

As someone who has just shifted to an ATI HD4870 after 10 years of only using Nvidia graphics cards, I feel that I am somewhat qualified to comment on the current state of drivers in both camps.

Nvidia=functional/few options/craptacular new interface
ATI=fully featured/richly optioned/better interface but not fantastic

After hearing years of FUD about ATI drivers I was shocked when working with Cat8.7 to find that none of that seemed to be true.

PLUS! Monthly updates. Be still my beating heart! I can't remember the last time Nvidia updated the drivers for my Geforce 7 generation card. Unless your Nvidia card is less than 6 months old or suffering a major defect (performance doesn't count) you can forget ever needing to update your Nvidia drivers

I was never an Nvidia fanboy, I just got used to buying what I knew and had good experiences with (I actually ordered a 512mb X1950Pro online but the card EOLed before it got filled), and in the past Nvidia products were always as good or better than the competition at the time of purchase (I missed out on the "joy" that came with an Geforce FX5xxx purchase!).

Now, I can't see myself going back any time soon. I've made the jump and I'm here to stay.
The 4870 is a bit warm, but it is cheap, fast, quiet and games like a monster at 1920x1200. 

And Cat8.8 has no issues for me.
Many people last month have come in with broken graphics cards, far and above what normal failure rates should be. Nvidia 8800 and up have been failing a lot lately.

We generally reccommend ATI graphics to our customers whenever applicable. Which means about 50% of our customers have a Radeon card, and an AMD Processor.

We hardly ever get Radeon/AMD/Intel failures. Almost always Nvidia card .
I have 2 dell xps 1330's in the last 20 months have had 4 motherboards replaced due to gpu failure the last 3 months ago.
The Dell technician came again today so i asked him about it. He told me he is replacing 70-80 Motherboards a week.
So disbelievers wake up!