I am amazed about how narrow-minded are some people.
In Italy the market is made in a way that prevent a lot of people to be able to buy a computer without operating system.
This is possible, but very difficult, especially if you live in a small town, like most Italians do.
The suit arises from the fact that despite the words of the EULA giving you the possibility to have a refund if you don't want the OS, in reality it's nearly impossible to get it.

nonsense has a point. If you already have a lisence and your replacing a dead pc, shouldn't you be allowed to transfer that lisence to the new pc??

Buy your computer at a "mom and pop" store if you lack the means to build one yourself (they're actually pretty easy).

Inform them you will be providing the OS or installing it later yourself... done!

From reading first ten comments, some one with brains will think that all commentators are MS paid or plain stupid !!!
It is not possible to buy computer (laptop or desktop) of popular brand without Windows.
Just to remind you, couple of years ago, MS tried to enforce by law in UK, that every computer should be sold with OS preinstalled. Their OS.
So, we (other OS users) may be relatively small group (~5%), but it's a large number. And it's billions that MS will spend against us. And if average Joe will see that up to 30% of his money gone to MS ?
What if you already own License ?
It's like selling a car and telling you that you can only use Shell gas.
MS is abusing computer illiterate people. And i'll be happy to see same lawsuit here.

I may be wrong, but the issue of whether it is in fact possible to buy a PC "naked" is largely beside the point. (and yes, it is very very hard to find laptops without Win. installed).

Have you ever tried to get your money back? Any of you?

Bundling and EULAs is a system that cannot exist in its current form without the formal legal possibility of opting out, and thus an entitelment to a refund.

This, for anyone fool enough to have actually tried it, is close to impossible as few people have the time or energy to fight for what might amount to $30-50 (wild guess on $).

While I agree that it is the OEM (HP, Dell or whoever) that is responsible for processing the refund, that cost would then need to be sent back to MS.

Based on past behaviour of MS (and I recommend the "Findings of Fact" and other trial transcripts from the Monopoly case in the US as a source of past behaviour patterns) I predict that any OEM that attempted to pass this cost back to MS would be severely dealt with.

MS is a monopoly (a legal fact), and its executives behave exactly as one would expect. Anyone who knows what MS did to IBM during the Win95 release will be aware that "gangsterism" is the only adequate description. I have seen no evidence that MS has altered their corporate behaviour, so OEM reticence to upset "the beast" is understandable.

Anyway, my reading of the Italian suit article is that consumers cannot get a refund for something they do not want, something they cannot reasonably avoid paying for, and for which they are specifically, legally entitled according the the EULA.

This is not news to anyone who has tried it, and it's about time this particular tree was shaken.

I will not enter into the legal issue of who is actually responsible and whether the Italians are going after the wrong target, because I cannot read italian and do not know what an Italian EULA looks like or anything about Italian law.

The following OSes are sold in Big Box stores in US
Microsoft Windows
Apple OSX
Assorted Linux on eMachines PC

Laptops are available with Linux preloaded.

Microsoft did force the purchase of Windows from major OEMs. The method was a contract that required the purchase of a Windows license for every unit sold regardless of OS. They were taken to court and lost.

In some cases a barebones PC costs more than the same machine with Windows preloaded due to the payments the OEM receives for preloading trialware. Those payments can easily exceed the cost of the OS.

So HW cost+MSWin cost-trialware bribe can be less than HW cost. So the customer gets a discount if they are willing to format the hard disk before loading Linux :P

I recently bought a new Nissan Altima. It came with Goodyear tires. I'm suing Goodyear because Nissan didn't give me the option of buying a car with no tires.

Bottom line is, the Nissan dealer doesn't sell a car with no tires because it isn't usable in that form. That's why the big electronics stores don't sell computers without operating systems - they're unusable in that form. I imagine Best Buy would have to deal with their own lawsuits if they did business that way; there's plenty of people who wouldn't understand what "NO OPERATING SYSTEM" means on the box.

As for your comments:

Did you know that OEM's final price is partially subsidized by Microsoft as long as windows is pre-installed which is why a PC with windows pre-installed tends to be cheaper then a system without. Now when you say OEM's aren't forced you are "Technically" right but that is because any and all businesses are in the market to make money so for them it is in their best interest to pre-install windows because they make more money whether they sell or not.... because there is a little thing called "Incentive programs" that companies like Intel and Microsoft have been doing for years. Intel got caught and punished for this specifically Microsoft has not but only because "Technically" they are not telling OEM's are not being cut out from windows if they don't sell windows with a system. Did you know Microsoft has several times tried to ban the selling of what they call "The naked PC"... do a quick google search on it.

Oh BTW have a quick read of the following links and you will get what I mean:

http://labnol.blogspot.com/2006/04/bill-gates-throws-party-to-celebrate.html
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39261437,00.htm
http://www.pierscorfield.com/published-articles-1/the-naked-pc

Well as people who frequent this site you are probably computer literate (although I have seen so many that aren't but spew their verbal diarrhea). That being said, the one thing that often computer literate people forget is that most people who use PC's are not literate so for them they want the Dell's and HP's that they see in big box stores.

When was the last time you saw a Dell or HP in a big box store that is sold without windows pre-installed?

So the fact of the matter is that there is currently a lot of opensource development happening in France and Italy as of late which could imply that they tend to be more towards the Linux type OS's and not Windows. So for all the "computer geeks" (btw the quotes implies that these are truly hacks who really think their opinions matter) out there who think windows is the only true OS you need to consider that non-techy people that live in a country that has truly been screwed by the Euro and their cost of living to net pay ratio is well under comfortable living conditions OS's like Linux is really the only way to go.

That extra 25 to 50 Euros makes a difference when it comes to being able to eat and look good... Remember the good old adage "Bella Figura" which directly translated says "Beautiful Figure" but what is actually means is look stylish/classy and have your attitude match what people see. Also remember food is extremely important to Italians.

PS: I am Italian but grew up in Canada and have been to Italy several times and I do see the contrast between Canada and Italy... also the fact that well over half of the TV shows are about cooking and almost the other half is about clothing/shoes/style. Most people don't build a white box let alone a pre-build white box. Brand names mean everything to Italians heck they made brand names popular in the consumerist society we see today.

Sure, we can all go to our local PC shop, because there is always one of those in town, right? And surely, said PC shop will install any OS you tell them to, because local PC-shop-guys are always PC-experts. And of course they'll offer the same prices and conditions as a big OEM.
Even in the rare case that this is not the case for someone (which is highly unlikely, right?), he can still build his own rig, because it's so easy that everyone can do it.

Now I'd like to ask you to take off your rose-colored glasses and see reality.

Finding a non-Windows-PC is hard. Your local PC-shop is very likely expensive and WILL rip you off if they can, because they have to to survive. Building a PC yourself is outright impossible for the vast majority of users. And then, if any of the major OEMs goes out of its way and offers some flavor of Linux on their machines, the Windows-tax is LOWER than the Non-Windows-tax. You see that? You pay more for a machine without the proprietary OS.

Now, tell me again that it's stupid of someone to want a refund for something he could not chose to NOT purchase.

Bill Gates the offspring of two lawyers learned well how to get rich via unethical, immoral and illegal behavior.

This is why lawyers are rich. Ridiculous frivolous lawsuits. As it's been pointed out, no one put a gun to their head and forced them to buy a PC with Windows on it. They can buy PC's from system builders without Windows or built systems without Windows, themselves. So they don't want Windows. They would still have to install a different operating system. Why should Microsoft pay them for that? I'm all for free market and all, but let's be realistic.

I think the Italians are wasting their time completely. But it sure is nice to watch M$ being stuck in the ribs!

Yes I can and do build my own desktops and have been since 1994. But you can't build a high end laptop, and the Dell xps was $1200. compared to the apple equivalent laptop was $2500.
You can always build a better Desktop than you can buy from an oem for 1/2 the price and most hardware components are guaranteed for at least 3 years. I have no use for MS and don't want to pay for it.

Price Laptops as follows:

BrandX Laptop (with Windows/OS) $499.95

BrandX Laptop (without OS) $529.95

Tony, MS doesn't force a PC manufacturer to ship Windows, market forces do. Users don't want anything else. Joe Bloggs public are entrenched in there own little world of comfort and the Windows logo. This is a simple market economy, where MS has never been convicted of "forcing" Windows onto anyone, because they don't force it onto anyone. Yes MS has done dodgy things in the past, but you are utterly deluded to think OEMs choosing Windows has been one.

This Itialian thing is nothing more than some bunch of whiners wanting money because they were to stupid to buy the same machine configured a different way. HP offer 6 different OS configs across there range on business class machines (they've been doing this for over the last 6+ years), but do these idiots look? no they dont. Dell offer Linux on a few machines also.

Every independant PC shop out there offers almost any OS a customer wants...if they bother to ask!

What these lot actually want is to be able to sell Windows back to MS because they bought it. The thing is though, large bulk made systems are often setup specifically for the OS and hardware. Look at the number of HP's and other laptops which simply wouldnt even run XP when folk tried to install it over the shipped Vista on them. The system builders simply put the OS on which they've got set up for it as much for there support capabilities as well as for the majority of users.

MS is not to blame because the likes of PC World etc sell machines with Windows because most people want it. And just beacuse some whiner wants money back because they are to stupid to actually buy the machine configured a different way, or can't be bothered waiting for it to be shipped to them that way, is a problem they picked for themselves.

Anyhow, I'm off to buy a HP with FreeDOS, Solaris, SUSE, HP/UX, or no OS at all preinstalled...because I can (if people can be arsed to look)!

[For all of those using any non Windows O/S and are crying about it being preinstalled. What kind of moron are you, that you can't build your own computer? FAIL!!!

I started building my own computer ever since I stripped and upgraded my first prebuilt.]

I guess your first "prebuilt" PC that you stripped and upgraded had an OS installed, right? Let me guess... was it Ubuntu? Was it Red Hat Linux? Or any other Linux Distribution?

I guess not... I guess it was... wait... let me think... Windows!

See? you say Italians are dumb since they cannot install on their own an alternative OS to Windows. But you yourself admit you once bought a PreBuilt PC, with a Preinstalled OS, and this OC I bet 100% was Windows, any version. In Italy we have a saying: "Il bue che dice cornuto all'asino" Feel free to google it for a proper translation...

The point is: Someone who buys a PC for the first time is forced, by market, by manufacturer, by whoever you like, to buy it with an PS preinstalled, or he is not able to plug it in and do whatever he likes with it as soon as he arrives home. They want a "plug-it-in-and-go" appliance, like the fridge, the washmachine, the television. This is the normal user, not the geek or computer expert which usually reads and laughs at such news. And this is no news, btw. normal people, probably, don't even know of the existance of an alternative, since it is not publicised OUTSIDE of the World wide Web! And to get there, you first have to own a PC, don't you? or you can directly surf the web with your fridge? I think not...

Anyway what the class action aims to is a clear, visible and economically proportionated alternative to a prebuilt PC with Windows preinstalled. And as someone else wrote, this is still not the case.

Microsucks violated law and forced PC makers to install Windows on all PCs they produced. Microsucks has been convicted for this crime on several continents. Up until recently you could noy buy an IBM based PC without Windoze installed. Even after the conviction of Micorsucks most vendors continued to force consumers to buy a PC with Windoze installed, which increased the price $100+, which is illegal.

Microsucks still "encourages" PC builders to do this and we all pay tens of billions to Microsucks each year for this violation of law.

not really sure this is MS fault, they don't actually make pcs so how can they be blamed for windows being on it. Are they to be expected to refuse deals to sell windows to hardware manufacturers because of clowns like this?

First of all, being a mafialand native, let me thank you for ur kindness. Actually most of us are dumb, including myself.

Second... nope, we don't have NEWEGG. I wish we had it! Or that they would ship here, but alas, they don't! I guess they're scared by our beloved mafia.

Polemic aside, it's just another example of poor journalism and sensation desire. Major chains do carry machines withouth o/s and they're fairly recognizable, because they cost definitely less! Possibly they had a point 5-8 years ago, but right now that's no longer the case! Guess they wanted to start the new year with a BANG!

P.S. if you have connections with NEWEGG, pls tell'em we'd love to be able to do business with them...

Most people who commented here are ignorant and cannot see beyond their own nose...

The problem isn't with desktops, i agree that the best policy is to simply build your own box, cheaper, better, entirely based on your needs. Those who aren't able to build their own desktop pc, wouldn't pick another OS anyway(except MACOSX).

The problem is with laptops. You simply cannot find laptops without an os preinstalled. And don't tell me you could build your own... Even if you could find parts,and find them cheap, it would be far more difficult than building a desktop, i have experience repairing laptops, i know... Since laptops are the biggest part of the market right now, and almost all of them come with win preinstalled, italians have a point...

Trying to find a pre-built PC without Windows is difficult, but anyone who has been looking for a laptop without Windows will know that it's virtually impossible. If nothing else, if this lawsuit was favourable for the plaintiffs then all laptops and pre-built PC's would need to be distributed with drivers etc that would need to support multiple OS's which would increase some costs for the suppliers and all hardware makers, but at least we wouldn't have to pay the Microsoft tax...and may in fact increase awareness of alternative OS's as suppliers will need to advertise which OS's the PC is compatible with, effectively creating competition within the OS market. Lets just say that if they win and all PC/Laptop distributors had to offer the customer alternative OS's on purchase, it makes the purchase more complicated and could cause confusion for those that aren't computer savvy who just want to walk in to a shop and walk out with something that works the moment they turn it on, it creates some barriers to the sale, but in the end it should provide benefits to customers. Lets just say, the outcome of this could be have very interesting consequences in the market.

For all of those using any non Windows O/S and are crying about it being preinstalled. What kind of moron are you, that you can't build your own computer? FAIL!!!

I started building my own computer ever since I stripped and upgraded my first prebuilt.

You walk into any store and try to find a machine that doesn't have Windows on it. Why should you have to go out of your way to find a machine without it? Anyone should e able to walk into any store and buy a computer without Windows.

That's the point of the argument the Italians are making, and I'm with them 100%

You pay for that Window OS when you buy the machine. Why should you if you don't want it?

Umm, first of all, you don't have to pay for windows if you dont want it, as many have said, don't buy a windows PC.

Secondly, you could buy a PC with OSX installed, oh wait, they cost way too much more. Well you could go down to a computer shop and buy one with ANY OS YOU WANT as Doug said.

What I don't get is why they are having the fight with Microsoft, it's the manufacturers who sell the boxes with Windows.

If it were Apple they were blaming they could get away with it, because Apple write the OS and make the box, what happens if you want to buy a big Mac for the look of it, but want Ubuntu instead and dont want the Jobs Tax?

You can buy your own PC without Windows, it may not be the one you want, but as it turns out the manufacturer doesn't make that model without Windows (it's a complete package), and logic usually states that you can't buy something that doesn't exist

The case is completely gone, it doesn't make sense or hold up in any way.

I do like the analogy of the fruit salad though...

Proud of ya and I wish I'd thought of this one earlier.

With all the protectionist policies in Italy already, I'm surprised people just don't buy "locally" anyway, where they can have the chump in the shop install whatever OS they want. In the end, we all know they'll just stick some pirated version of Windows on there anyway.

What would make this problem go away is to just have the computer manufacturers just state that you can have it shipped without Windows, but the charge is going to be exactly the same no matter what OS configuration you choose. Build your own damn PC if you want otherwise.

People are idiots - plain and simple.

When you buy any PC that isn't an Apple - you're getting Windows.

If you want something without Windows, simply put - BUY SOMETHING WITHOUT WINDOWS!!!

I'm sick of these stupid, whiney people cutting into my retirement fund!

Go Bill go!!!

This is the famous 'Windows Tax' which Microsoft slugs us with.

We should be compensated both for the price of Windows (which was added to the cost of the PC), and for the inconvenience of exorcising it out of our computers.

When you replace it with Linux, you suddenly find your system runs faster, surfs the web faster, uses less RAM, less hard drive space, no virus software needed (hence more efficient processor), longer battery life. No more Microsoft pop-up warnings and advertisements.

In fact, people who stay with Windows should get even more compensation for all those annoyances.

Hey, let's toss Apple into this also. They technically do not make their computers either (in fact, they are made by the same set of Chinese & Taiwanese conglomerates that make pretty much all the PCs - eg Quanta, Compal, Foxconn, etc) - what if I want thst "Apple PC" without the crummy Apple OS - will they refuud my money also? And would they refund it doen to the true price of the PC components?

I live in a relatively small town of roughly 200,000 folk. We have at least a dozen viable, independent shops who can't build all the computers they have demand for. And they'll very gladly put whatever OS you want on the box within legal limits of course. Hell some may be doing the unthinkable but I don't know for sure.

I and my wife bought Gateways in 1999. Less than two years later my wife had a replacement built for hers locally. With the exception of the netbook I bought six months ago, I've built my own ... about a dozen of them for family and more for friends. All boxes had Windows installed because that was what people knew, used at work and were comfortable with.

There are choices, but outside the geek/nerd/basement world people just don't care for the most part what the OS is.

This is a joke. If you're going to file suit then you should (at the very least) properly research the details of the business process you have grievance with. The computer manufacturers are paying Microsoft for the right to send these computers to the store with Windows pre-installed; therefore, their grievance is more with the manufacturers than Microsoft. This silly lawsuit is not unlike suggesting that Microsoft is somehow hijacking the computer shipments mid-delivery from the manufacturer to the store and sneaking a Windows pre-install on them before they hit the store shelves. That's the only way they could be held at fault for this. Microsoft should email the news of this lawsuit through the organization and promote it as The Funniest Lawsuit of 2010.

What organizations won't do for a quick buck. If someone is too inexperienced to install another free OS on a machine or better yet build their own machine then they probably need Windows (or OSX) in order to operate it. And I agree, nobody is forcing them to buy the pc with Windows preloaded and they certainly aren't being stopped from loading something else on it. I don't really know that the price difference would be to buy an OEM machine with no OS but I doubt it's a huge difference. I will say though that OEM's would do well to start offering pcs with no OS.

Try to buy a PC without Windows. Not sure if they still do, but MS used to give cheaper prices per copy if you preloaded Windows on ALL your machines, whether or not someone asks for another OS to be preloaded. When they lost a lawsuit about this in the US, they decided to allow people to buy a computer without their OS, but only if they also paid the same amount as if they bought the OS. Hopefully the EU will change this abuse.

Did someone put a Luger pistol to their head and force them to buy their crappy computer? Is there no Newegg.com in Italy? This is the dumbest thing I've read all day.

Every person who has every bought a PC with a mandatory installation of any Windoze POS O/S deserves a refund as Microsucks has violated anti-trust law by forcing PC makers to install their crap O/S and consumers to pay for a defective O/S.

Gates should spend the next 25 years in prison and forfeit all compensation for the past 20 years, IMO.

This case needs to be thrown out. The hardware vendors are essentially being paid to preload the OS and trial-ware. This is equivalent to buying cigarettes bundled with a "free" lighter. You are free to toss it in the trash and the cigarettes cost the same as the ones without the freebie. Heck they might even be cheaper in order to hook new customers :P

As far as problems installing the OS of the customer's choice. All the enduser has to do is stick the install disk in the drive, make sure the BIOS is set to boot from that drive and do a clean install on "bare hardware". Regardless of the OS when the disk is formatted by the installer, anything on it simply evaporates with no trace left that can be found without specialized software.

This is legal trolling at it's finest. Their only real argument is that by providing a preloaded OS, the customer is less likely to obtain, and install an alternative OS...thus a valid anti-trust complaint.

Ehm - doesn't the End User Licence Agreement already state that if you do not want to software that is installed on the computer, you should give it back to the supplier?

something like:
"By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the
software. Instead, contact the manufacturer or installer to determine their return policy for
a refund or credit."

The italian claim is ridiculous. It's the computer retailers that preinstall all the software, not Microsoft. They will just look like a bunch of retards trying to get some easy cash. No one forced the idiots to buy a computer with Windows preinstalled. If you want Linux, the chances are you know how to remove windows, format the disk, and install Linux. It's not rocket science.

So why not just add Linux Mint 8 universal edition as a second source OS and keep the lawyers out of your PC?

You'll probably only go back to Windows to run that app' that's still not available in the world of freedom software.

What if I buy a computer and it has a DVD drive in it and I don't want one, can I sue someone for that? How about if I buy a house and it has a phone line in it and I intend to use my mobile rather than land line, should I sue someone for that?

If people are that upset, shouldn't they be suing the PC makers as the are forcing you to buy it, not Microsoft? The PC makers can easily choose a different OS if they wanted to...

It's all very well saying, "Buy a PC without Windows." but most of them don't have that option.

It's about time that manufacturers provided each of their PCs with a purchasing option of Windows or some flavour of Linux or something else. A simple USB dongle could be sold with the PC for those that want Windows. When the machine is powered on it looks for the dongle: if found then Windows boots; if not found then (after a prompt to confirm non-wanting of Windows), Windows is wiped from the hard disk and an alternative boots or the machine is left without an OS, pending user installation.

If the EC had any sense then they would mandate something like this.

Simples. Won't happen. World fucked up.

Frankly I hate paying for windows if I don't. want it and yet I still have to pay for it. Its like buying a car and having to pay for Goodyear tires even through you want another brand.
It is a monopoly plain and simple.
Linux is free and can run any computer and people should be able to have a option.
I wish EVERY COUNTRY in the world would pass a law stating you don't have to pay for MS if you don't want it.
I almost didn't buy a great dell notebook because it came with vista and I wiped it off as soon as I got it and installed Ubuntu. I don't know how they get away with it. If you don't want it try and get your money back!
Can you think of any other business that gets away with this?

Microsoft should be legally obliged to purchase their software at the MSR price, just loik any the rest of them blokes.

Microsoft has already been convicted of monopolistic practices by the EU and this suit is redundant!

If they haven't activated Windows, Microsoft should be able to disable their product key. If you activated Windows...no refund dummy!

I bet they simply want their money.
Because after they remove the pre-installed Windows. They will install... Windows... Most probably a pirated copy...

Honestly... if you want a PC that doesn't come with Windows, don't bloody well buy one that comes with Windows. There are plenty of ways of obtaining a PC without it.

It's like walking into a supermarket and buying a tin of fruit salad and then trying to send the cherries back for a refund because you never wanted them in the first place.

Buy something else you idiots.