This makes me hate Opera even more.
Screw you Opera - if you want your product to be bundled with a Microsoft operating system, you either nag some box-builders to include it, or you sell out and merge with Microsoft.
I agree with the people who are saying that you pussies at Opera should sue Apple as well, for bundling Safari.

If I were head of Microsoft, I wouldn't let people bitch about things like this. I would simply disallow the sale of any Microsoft products in all of Europe, and release a Windows update that effectively locks the user out of the OS on any Windows machine using an EU IP address.

@ Paul: 1) a monopoly in itself is by no means illegal. There are plenty of them all over the world. AAFES, SAQ, Major League Baseball, Joint Commission, etc, all very legal monopolies, and many of them government funded/run/owned. Using the power of a monopoly in anti-competitive ways is sometimes illegal. Not always, sometimes. 2)The anti-trust trial (May 18, 1998) against Microsoft was in no way about, nor stated that, Microsoft 'illegally forced PC makers to install Windows on all PCs built.' That is pure BS. The anti-trust suit was brought about by rival browser companies (Netscape and Opera) who were unhappy that Internet Explorer came bundled free with Windows 95 while they were trying to sell theirs. The rival companies were also unhappy that Microsoft would not license to manufacturers if they removed the IE icon from the desktop. That's it. 3)No one was trying to force anyone else to install Windows at all. Windows was already the OS that manufacturers and consumers *wanted* and as such was very high in demand. All consumers paid for their illegal act?? In what way? The price of Windows did not rise abnormally, the IE browser was given away free - as a matter of fact XP *is* explorer - it is the very core of the OS. Type an HTML address into any file directory address bar and you are taken to the website, because every version of Windows since Windows 95 *is* explorer. The anti-trust trial at first was successful because it was dealing with a version of Windows (95) that was not based on explorer as it's core. That verdict was later struck down (September 26, 2000 it was refused to be heard by the Supreme Court, and September 6, 2001 when the US DoJ dropped almost all penalties against MS)
The DOJ did not require Microsoft to change any of its code nor prevent Microsoft from tying other software with Windows in the future. Now what has the governments of the EU in a snit is that they decided to file their own anti-trust case against MS to try to get paid, and MS in the end gave them nothing. Now they are litigating to try to get paid and trying to fine MS additional money for not paying what they had determined unilaterally MS should have paid them. With the anti-trust case already over and done in the home country of MS, the penalty phase expired 2 years ago, and the OS in question now not even being sold having long since been replaced, that action was what many would consider simply greedy on the part of the EU bean counters. By the way, in capitalism, there is no legal requirement (and not much sense) for a 'level playing field' - which is why some companies go bust and others thrive. Some are better and more popular than others, make better products, etc. Trying to enforce a 'level playing field' is the socialist way. Again I ask, what do you think would happen if MS decided to stop playing with the EU, took their ball (all MS products), so to speak, and went elsewhere with it and made it where none of their future products would work in the EU, refusing to deal with that area of the world? Not unfeasible as this is hardball big business, and frankly selling cheap to the Chinese, who outnumber the EU population by how many to one(?) would probably make them more money with less hassles. No I don't seriously think it will happen, but there may easily come a point where MS will say it is costing them more to do business in the EU than they make, and hence will cut their losses and pull out.

@jared

Microsucks has been convicted in the U.S., Asia and Europe for violation of anti-trust laws - inlcuding illegally forcing PC makers to install Windows on all PCs built. All consumers paid for that criminal act and every other one performed by Microsucks in their attempt to maintain their illegal monopoly that was achieved only by forcing PC makers to install Windows on all PCs built.

The EU is doing exactly what they should to maintain a level playing field and hold Microsucks accountable for their unending violations of anti-trust laws. If the U.S. judicial system wasn't for sale to the highest bidder, they would have fined Microsucks a trillion dollars and refunded it to consumers who paid for Microsucks crime.

What would the EU do if Microsoft suddenly refused to sell any products to EU countries. Throw in a little anti-piracy thing or two like using their proprietary OS backdoors to brick any PC going online from a EU IP address (and it is foolish to even think Bill G did not have these built into his OS - he even built in programs that secretly call home to report you if you choose to NOT install WGA), and instead started power selling to the Asian and Oriental markets for a fraction of what the EU currently pays. Many more customers means more money even at reduced prices.

In the end it comes down to this: no one has to buy Microsoft software. Period. There are other OS's out there both for sale and for free, and these have been available since at least the time Windows was followed by a 3.x. You don't like the things in the software? Don't buy it! You think you can do better? Go do what a few college dropouts did and make your own.

This is bogus.

The EU needs to quit screwing with American companies just because they are American.

Hopefully the EU suspends all sales of all Microsucks products in Europe until Microsucks changes their products and pays a hundred BILLION Euro fine.

I think IE is still embedded in their OS so you can not actually remove it. I don't think the EU would have a case if you could actually uninstall IE and use Firefox or what ever. I remember MS saying about XP it was impossible to remove IE without breaking the OS. MS is a piece of scum for their strong arm tactics and I hope the EU takes them to the cleaners. I can remove Safari simply by dragging the app to the trash. A real nice alternative for Safari is a browser called Camino. You can disable flash with it to cut down on annoying adverts. It is fast too.

So you can't run an asp site on anything other than IE??? Get new developers... I'm a Project Manager for a large internet insurance site and we support FF 2, FF3, IE6, IE7. And guess what our site runs in... ASP (classic, .Net 1.1 and .Net 2.0 flavours). If you can't run it in non IE browsers than I want to know how 20% of our users acess our site... Same goes to all those who say you can't get a site to work unless you use IE...

Oh, and yes Opera sucks... I used it for a while but it just randomly used images (that all other major browsers got right, even Safari based browsers) got wrong) where it felt like it. For every single site I tried (news, dilbert, userfriendly, slashdot).

How many people remember the sorry "competitor" products that were out when Microsoft was "monopolizing" them? Remember Netscape Navigator? Real Player? Boy were they sorry pieces of junk. Microsoft changed the landscape when they battled such companies. Now we don't need to suffer pay-for-browser models and junk/adware media players. Good riddance. I'm glad Microsoft eradicated those kinds of markets. I'm happy Microsoft forced those companies to release their source code to the public, spawning derivatives such as Firefox. If people can't be assed to change their browser themselves, maybe the alternatives--like Opera--simply aren't compelling enough.

IE still bundled? Well DUH!!! Be a major PIA to get out and download Firefox if they didn't.

LoCatus

Personally, I think they should unbundle notepad and calculator -- they're clearly stifling competition. And while we're there, let's get rid of paint. Strip out the shell. The Windows APIs are clearly being illegally bundled preventing users from choosing competing vendors' APIs. What's left? What's that? They're still integrating the kernel into Windows? Gotta stop that - make those monopolists take it out. Fine 'em!

If you removed IE from Windows how would someone even be able to get online to download Opera if that's what they wanted? You would have to go out to the store and buy it and then install it. That's if your local store would even carry it.

This is starting to be a bunch of bull with the EU. someone over there doesnt like MSFT so they sue.

Opera should sue Apple for Mac coming pre-loaded.

but OOPS! you need that browser to do anything online; just like Windows. MSFT should take IE off and then just ship the computer. And say if you want to have IE you pay $5 for it at your local computer store and see if they get around that one.

Well, no you don't.

MS could make the decision to bundle IE, FF and Opera with Windows.

Or they could provide a means to download the browser of your choice on a freshly installed OS.

There is no reason to just bundle IE with Windows. No reason at all.

Apple is not monopolist.
There is definition for this word.
According to the law in most countries, organization (company) with more then 70% of the market is monopolist.
and in OS market MS is the only one with more then 80%.
When

I don't know why these companies believe that people will actually use their browser if it is bundled with Windows. MS is a software company that is what they do if they want to put their browser in their OSes that is their business. They are just upset because MS is good at what it does, and I have used Opera and it just doesn't cut it. They forget that it is the individual choice on which browser to use. Yes I use IE to access the internet initially, but I also have a choice to download and use other browsers. I guess when opera said that they have so many millions downloads, guess they must be lying. Because if they were why are they complaining. The EU should stop picking on companies just because someone that is not very smart in doing business and is strapped for cash. I mean why didn't they say something before, why now. I am a MS fan and most of the people I know, and I have quite a few friends. We only use what works for us in all aspect of the WWW.

But Linux distros do not prevent the user from completely removing the default browser and installing whatever the hell THEY want. And if someone doesn't happen to want IE on their system, well thats just tough. And then on top of that there is the fact that a lot of people have trouble remembering despite it being echoed over and over is that MS is a special case because they are a MONOPOLY.

Every damn device is now bundled with some kind of Internet browser, mobile – PS3 – Xbox360 - PDA – MAC – even Linux! What the hell?!?! This doesn’t make sense anymore.

It seems other world followers (sorry, I mean leaders) are also blaming the Americans for the global meltdown.

The American Plan is not the example to follow for anything. Time the EU made that clear to Microsoft and the other owl worshiping corporations.

The only browser with zero security flaws, and 100% Acid3 compliance. FF, chrome and other garbage-rowsers nicked Opera's originals to their own dirty game. Who was the first to come with tabbed browsing, page-zoom, snapshot site access.......? Opera

So Opera have their knickers in a twist because they stll can't manage 1% of the market, and so try their best to convince the EU that it's all Microsoft's fault.

Never mind the fact that FireFox is poular with people who already have IE on their machine, or that Safari pops up and takes 8% of the market, or that even Chrome (which has been around for 5 minutes) now has more market share than Opera.

Anyone who develops websites knows that Opera is always the browser refusing to co-operate and behave like the others... even IE is easier to deal with. The Opera arrogant attitude of "we are right and the rest of the world is wrong" is pretty hard to cop from such a piss-ant outfit.

Perhaps if Opera paid more attention to fixing their piece of crap software and less to bitching about the competition, they might do better.

your all missing the point, if you want to guarantee a web site renders/functions properly youve got to stick to M$hites closed code and scripts, making it almost imposible for any competition to code a browser with 100% functionality/rendering, not only that i would suggest that the vole actually sabotages its own sites so as NOT to work properly with any other browsers, effectively trying to kill off any competition that has the audacity to challenge internet exploder's monopoly market share, heh, were talking uber bucks here in advertising revenue etc, for example, i use opera, sometimes when i go to hotmail it renders 90% ok and i can open my mail, next visit, its all over the place and i cant open my mail at all, the reason ?? M$hites tracking cookies and their out of order use of javascript, clear their nasty cookies and bingo, back in business, disable javascript and the site wont work at all, there are many other examples out there, its totally out of order and their cow cash monopoly needs to stop, at the end of the day its us, the punter, that pays the price, its about time M$hites devious practices were stopped, cos one things for sure, they aint gonna do it voluntarily, good on opera and any others that fetch their crap practices 'out into the open' /rant over :O)...............................

@Dorman. T Reign :- "Opera sucks anyways and if it weren't for the Wii i still wouldn't have herd of it." where did ya read that opera sucks ?? in one of your comic books, STFU and go back to your toys noob :O) FFS Inq fix the paragraphs plzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :O)

Ok so if they take IE out of windows, how are you going to access the internet without an web browser to be able to go and get someone’s else browser?

Kind of need something on a fresh OS build to get online, regardless of the OS, be it Apple or MS or Linux for that matter? They all have a WB built in from install, why should MS have to b different?

I've said this before and I'll say it again, the EU will not leave Microsoft alone. The EU knows this is easy money (another few hundred million) and all they have to do is moan at Microsoft for putting extras into their own product/invention. Will we be hearing them about about Phillips car radios being inside motor vehicles next.......no of course not

Apple users want extra smugness, so they love the "apple only" ness of it all. They would be miffed if anyone could make software for apple pc's because then it would remove the veneer of marketing hype. Apple is the emperor's new clothes.

When your main global advertising campaign hinges on "pc" v's "mac", when both are personal computers (pc's), then you know you're only buying marketing bullshit.

Apple Store - queue here to buy more smugness and to be rolled over the nice desk and given it hard by Mr Jobs.

Microsoft, simple. For non-techies the inclusion of a browser is essential. However there should be a few choices of browser. If MS packaged a few with it's OS then that would be the solution.

Opera is actually pretty good, but not great. Opera should behave the same way IE does when using Ctrl functions, but it doesn't. Opera's start page with 9 launch options is handy.

Microsoft, the global domination marketing machine, could see the browser war mattered. Dominate it and you can put your search engine as the first choice. Kerching marketing dollars.

I wouldn't mind MS doing this if they delivered top notch products, but they keep giving us substandard, overpriced crap. Like American and British cars back in the 1970s.

With a bit of luck the Chinese will invent an OS that is reliable and cheap, the Europeans will invent one that looks cool. And after 15 years we will get a Euro-Asian hybrid that is cool and reliable. Microsoft, like GM, will still be around but will be a debt-ridden shadow of it's former self.

Ignoring all of the Apple and Linux loving crowd, who enjoy the idea of the worlds largest software maker going away... so more programs will be written for their OS of choose.

The bottom line IMO is this. Microsoft cant win, but they cant give in either...ever!

If they agree to take out IE, then they will be forced to take out every single application that comes in windows, even the innocent calculator would be attacked until finally there would be nothing but the windows "shell" and then sure enough some 3rd party GUI company would insist they are being squeezed out of the right to be on windows since they are not pre-installed. So the point is, if Microsoft gives in the this EU b$#@hit then it would begin a downward spiral, than would hurt end*users in the end.

I would love better priced software as much as the next guy, but this is a classic case of "attack the big guy". I just wish the EU would spend this much effort to go after the oil and telcom companies...

This is stupid. A modern operating system needs a browser to be useful; you can't remove it!
You want to use Firefox instead? How are you going to download and install that without a browser in the first place? Telnet to Mozilla's website? Maybe you could get OEMs to preinstall it, but hey, they can do that now!
And don't forget there are plenty of third-party applications that use IE's components within them to provide a browser. Take IE out and you break all those applications straight up.

Microsoft is preventing fair competition, that's what is wrong.
I don't know about US, but in EU, there is legislation to prevent such behaviour called monopoly.

"In economics, a monopoly exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it."

Does Microsoft have sufficient control over the browser you use? Yes it does.

Apple is non-factor here. When/If it will have the same influence over the _market_, you could accuse them of being a monopoly.

Friends, Are able to open asp website on non IE browser ? Ans is NO. It like getting Water at home free, but you have to use only proprietary pipes and fittings. And you cannot buy Steam, Refrigerators, water coolers, Bath tub ...etc from any other make. If anyone want to make these device will have to pay to company and use there development machines. You Kill innovation and competition to your product. All the supplies of tap and Tubs would shut down in some time .... like what has happed to world leader in Brower Netscape Navigator.

IE is another add-on feature that Microsoft is offering it to the users free of cost along with their OS.

What is wrong in it?

They also provide a way to uninstall it and use what ever the user need? Why should Opra sue on Microsoft? Its meaningless.

I agree with David! Someone should be sueuing Apple particularly on not being able to install it on non-Apple hardware.

Although I personally don't see why they should sue Microsoft - it makes sense that they could slap them on the back of the hand and tell them to give the user a choice of browsers on setup. Sorted. No one gets sued.... Not even Apple for the hardware thing, just tell them to change!

I have to be honest, this is stupid. If i made something who's to tell me what i can include in it. That's stupid! They made the OS they should be able to put whatever they want in it. These IE lawsuits are stupid, Opera sucks anyways and if it weren't for the Wii i still wouldn't have herd of it. Common since says if i paint a picture whos to tell me i can't put a tree in that painting. I'm not a big fan of micro$oft, the only real thing keeping with them is Direct X.

Ballmer say it ain't so! Is EU Frosting a Nickson? Because, if EU is, I got you back, Stevo. Microsoft are not a crook! Joe the plumber cracks at the Browsergate. And this is over the top of the VAT!

EU economy committee: how to solve economy crisis in EU? hm... what do we have... ah yes - microsoft! is paint still integrated?

Why isn't anyone sueing Apple.

They bundle Safari, in fact from what my Mac using friends tell me they bundle a lot more than Windows. That's forgetting the fact you can't install it on non-Apple hardware.