Nvidia 270, 290 and GX2 roll out in November
Why you shouldn't get too excited
IF YOU WERE wondering why Nvidia put out the GTX260-216 with a stupid-sounding name instead of the saner 270 moniker, here is your answer. There is a 270 coming, it will have a big brother called the 290, and a dual card code named "China Syndrome"(1).
Yeah, NV is in deep doo-doo right now. The card that was meant to power its way to profits, the GTX280, went from $649 at launch to $499 a few weeks later. A quarter or so on, it is selling retail for sub-$400 prices here and there. AIBs tell us that the 260 costs an ironic $260 to make, which closely matches the teardown numbers we have seen. Toss in the mandatory 15 per cent markup at the retail level, and if you see one for sale at under $300, someone is eating money. Basically, if you can make money on these parts, something is wrong.
From the October 6, 2008 Graphics Monthly report
On the up side, the 280 is the single fastest GPU on the market. On the down side people don't buy GPUs, they buy graphics cards, and the 280 is not the single fastest graphics card on the market. That honour goes to the ATI 4870X2 by a large margin. With the new-gen GT200 parts, Nvidia loses on all fronts, performance, performance per dollar, and performance per watt, they simply aren't competitive.
That brings us to the new parts, the 270 and 290. They popped up on a PNY price list a few weeks ago, and then were pulled off immediately. This part is what we were calling the GT200b in May, but the public code name is GT206. It is simply an optically shrunk GT200, so clock for clock, you won't get any speed boost out of it. It is meant to fatten up the margins by reducing cost. If the GT200 is a 576mm^2 die, and the 206 is around 460mm^2 (~21mm*21mm die), even with the more expensive 55nm process, NV should save some money.
One big problem though is yield. GT200s started out at 40 per cent yield, that is for the 280 and the yield salvage 260, and were up to a hair above 60 per cent last time we looked. Toss in the smoothly-named GTX260-216, and you screw up the binning a lot. When you transition to a new process, yield almost always goes down, so this part should be back in at the bottom of the yield toilet, not that 60 per cent is out of the bowl, in short order.
So what are the 270 and 290? That is easy, they are 55nm GT200s, aka GT200b, aka GT206. Nothing new, nothing spectacular at all. Why the new name then, other than desperation, if you get nothing different clock for clock? Well, that is easy, Nvidia simply has to bump up margins, and the easiest way to do that is to snow customers.
If you remember what they did when changing the name on the 8800GT to the 9800GTX, it is the same thing. Partners can't make money, and a name change will make the stupid fanbois out there line up. Milking the stupid is a time-honored tradition in the GPU world, and since the 55nm shrink of the G92, the G92b sold less worse when they renamed it the 9800GTX+, it looks like they are trying it again. No, not the GT1xx, this time it is going to be less egregiously renamed to the 270 and 290.
When you shrink a chip, there are three main benefits, area, power and speed, with the last two being a tradeoff of sorts. Going from 65nm to 55nm, you shrink to about 70 per cent of the area, and save a bit of power. The power savings, however, are not quite 30 per cent off the top and, in addition to that, you also lose more on leakage, as smaller structures leak more. People who have done the same shrink at TSMC tell us that you net far less than 20 per cent. Let's be generous and call the power savings 15 per cent.
The 280 has a TDP of 236W and the 260 is at 182W, with the 260-216 somewhere in between. Since the RAM, external circuitry, power regulators and fans don't scale at all, we will ballpark the board level power savings at 10 per cent. That would put theoretical 270s at 164W and the 290 at 212W, at the same clocks, but lets be overly generous and call it 160 and 200, just to give NV the benefit of the doubt.
As always with transistors, you can take the power savings as such while keeping the clocks the same, or keep power consumption the same and jack up speed. Guess which one NV is going to do? Hint: "20W less power consumption!" on the side of the box won't sell many cards. You would be better off airbrushing bigger nipples on the chrome chick cover art.
So, in the end, the 270 and 290 are simply a little faster 260s and 280s. Whoopty-fricking-ding-dong. They will be relaunched as the second coming, and sites that are far to afraid to be cut off will parrot back the NV sermon. It won't be fast enough to beat a 4870X2, not even close, but it will let NV jack up prices just in time for Christmas, giving their partners a desperately-needed few points of margin. NV fanbois will line up for it, and wonder why they took such a bath on the $650 280s they bought.
These cards were supposed to be out in late August or early September, but are now set for November. That is about time enough for a single respin, so something must have gone a bit pear shaped. In any case, it is much less delayed than the GT212, but that is another article entirely. AIBs just got their 270/290 boards recently, so both are a few weeks out yet.
If you are underwhelmed, then the dualie card is for you. We haven't seen a code name for it officially, but NV AIBs are talking about it. Take a 55nm GT200b/206 and put two PCBs together a la the 9800GX2, and you get the idea. There is one minor problem this time... heat.
The G92 (8800GT/9800GTX/GT15x) was coolable, barely, with a single slot cooler. The GT200 is not. Even with a theoretical 20 per cent lower power draw, you would be at 290W for a dual 55nm 260 clone. If you use a 260-216 or jack the clock up, you are at 300+W in an instant, and we can see 350W without trying hard.
Normally, you would do what ATI did with the 3870X2 and downclock it a bit. Not much, just a little, and take the power savings. The problem is that the 260 loses already to the cheaper 4870, and two of them wouldn't be much of a fight against the 4870X2. At a minimum, you need 2 260-216s, or better yet two upclocked 260-216s to pip the 4870X2 and claim a hollow victory.
NV is in a real bind here, it needs a halo, but the parts won't let it do it. If they jack up power to give them the performance they need, they can't power it. Then there is the added complication of how the heck do you cool the damn thing. With a dual PCB, you have less than one slot to cool something that runs hot with a two slot cooler. In engineering terms, this is what you call a mess.
Given NV's problems of late with cooling, (here, here, and here) it is in a bind, but there is no way out of this, none at all. The only thing it can do is resort to unethical tactics, and that is what we think it will do here. The only solution open to NV is to cherry pick ultra low power GT200b parts and make a small run of GX2s that don't burn a hole in the bottom of your case on their way down to the center of the earth.
If this case follows past tactics, NV will make a very small run of parts and claim there is full production. Think 1000 parts or so, most of which go to reviewers. The rest will go to high-profile marketers, think Newegg, and they will sell out. When people cry for more, the usual 'high demand' lines will be spun, and they will dribble out 10-20 cards here and there to keep up appearances.
Pricing will likely be right on top of the 4870X2, maybe $50 more in order to bolster the performance claims, and they will be undoubtedly be sold at a loss. Then again, with the number likely to be made, it is chump change to take a small bath on each one to claim the lead for Christmas.
In any case, if the three upcoming parts, the 270, 290 and GX2 look like naked desperation attempts to grab at a halo, you are right. Upping the clocks will hit NV in the bottom line at the end of the quarter, their margins will suffer because of this stupidity. Fanbois will love it, massively subsidised parts are great deals for consumers. In fact, you will likely see massively discounted 260s and 280s in a few weeks when the new parts hit the street. They won't save Nvidia's bacon, but they may help partner margins. For a short time. At a high price. µ
(1) It was code named "Smoking Sepuku", but Nvidia didn't want to publicly suggest that this strategy was vaguely related to anything honorable, so it was renamed. We saw the memo, it was poignant. (2)
(2) We are, of course, making this all up.

Comments
Cool solution
one solution to the cooling problem, and to be honest i have no idea why companies don't do it, instead of putting the cheapest possible heat sink on there to keep costs down, if they put a really good one which might cost $10 more, one such as the Sapphire Toxic Vapor-X cooler, they would instantly knock 20-30 degrees of the GPU temp!GT200 GX2 may have lower power consumption than 4870X2
Well, it is known fact that the GTX260 have much lower power consumption than the 4870 (esp idle power). And it is 65nm. So, IMHO the 55nm die shrink would be even less power hungry (compare 9800GTX+ with 9800GTX if you don't agree) and will be higher clocked. It should be easily able to beat the 4870X2 both in performance and power consumption.All very interesting
But just FYI, the 3870x2 wasn't downclocked. It was actually upclocked to 850 (from a reference 775 for the stock 3870)Really..
I didn't read the authors name, but I guessed it about one paragraph in to the article..
"We are, of course, making this all up."Good to Charlie-boy can post -something- truthful for once instead of fantasy fiction...
LOL
"You would be better off airbrushing bigger nipples on the chrome chick cover art."- nipple size is always the main criteria when picking a new card, closily followed by frame buffer size, bigger is better right? ; )
4870 Still More Powerful Than GTX 260-216
First off the GTX-216 is not as powerful as a 4870 even. So I really don't see how a 260GX2 will be more powerful than a 4870X2. Not to mention that ATI seems to be able to almost double performance in a great deal of games in cross fire mode with the new way of doing it in the 4000 series which Nvidia has not managed to do.And second I have no idea why in the article above it is said that there is more gate leakage at a smaller die size. I have only ever heard that there is less gate leakage at a smaller die size. So unless the laws of physics have changed recently, someone please enlighten me.
all's fine, but...
GTX260 216 and GTX280 are very closely matched in performance terms... so i don't see where there's a space for a GTX270... just a die shrink with almost the same performance figure doesn't charm me much...Nailing the crown
Now, jsut a thought, but they could go for the crown, at no expense, except cost spared.A whileback there were rumours of the 2900xt coming with an external power supply that never materialised. Nv could do a 290gx2, or a gtx300?
they could put "ultra" parts on the board, and jsut use the asetek lclc, already used other places.
This would only be worth doing if it meant killer clocks that clearly bet the 4870x2, so either the power requirements would be insane (but would this really be a problem for such an expensive card?), or have an external power supply for it? jack plug in the vga plate.
You take the whole cost and its tremendous, but they could then argue that they have the crown back, admitedly at ludicrous expense.
just look at that dual 6x 250 watt power supply by thermaltake a while back. was retailing for £25. mass produce it, make it less fancy, and your sorted for relatively cheap £20 additional cost for the psu.
Right now, i think nv would be shotting themselves to try and take the 4870x2 with the 290, its just not good enough to reasonably achieve.
GDDR5
Surely nV will go to GDDR5 on these new parts, or at least on the 290 to gain a little more marketing err performance ?If cooling is a problem for a dual card, just make it a liquid cooled solution only. This shouldn't really be a problem in 2008/2009.
Everyone PC manufacturer / S.I. has at least 1 sku of liquid cooled gaming PC, even Tier 1s (Dellienware/ HPodoo)
I'm sure nV could team up with Asetek and produce an LCLC type low cost liquid cooling solution for people with only air cooled PCs ?
Single rad on the rear fan type arrangement..
GDDR5
Nvidia can still play the gddr5-card. It would increase performance a lot, while decreasing power consumption.I suppose a card with two downclocked, 240sp, 55nm cores in combination with 2GHz gddr5 memory would provide killer performance in a manageable power envelope.
3870x2
The 3870 core was upclocked to 850, but they used GDDR3 on the x2 as compared to the GDDR4 on the 3870. I think the memory was clocked slower too?here i am!
what on earth is he waffling on about now. at idle the nvidia GT parts use far less power than the 4870's. at load they are about equal. its easy to compare, just take GT260 SLI as the baseline and reduce power consumption by 10 percent. with this die shrink and the small power consumption saving, it will be no trouble at all for nvidia to pair up the 216SP parts in GX2 form. power consumption would most certainly be there or thereabouts in the ballpark of 4870 X2, and certainly no big deal to the kind of people buy these ultra end cards anyway, what, does he think enthusiast cards are squeezed into cheapo eco rigs by mr. casual gamer? cooling is the main concern, he criticises nvidia for some poor cooling solutions, but where you been the past few years??? all of ATI's top cards had either ridiculous power consumption and terrible stock cooling. many had both, such as the X1900's, 2900's.......4870 is no exception, it runs hotter than satan's summertime. i suspect that my prediction of nvidia taking back the title of fastest card as mocked by ATI loons will happen just as i said it would. i said it without fanboy motivation, just assured common sense.Back pocket
This author is getting paid by ATi.**Important to understytand,
you lessen leakage when you go to a smaller manufacturing process,...resulting in lower temps.
This is common knowledge.
Author
Is it bad that I could tell who the author was before clicking the link to the article? Oh well, I'm intrigued enough now to find some more, unbiased, info about these cards. Thanks, Chuck.Extra Innings.
With AMD Split, Nvidia May have that Extra Chance while ATI is in confusion, chaous & ripped both ways, by greedy Masters.Still Gtx 350 is Unkown, although announced as Next Generation. its Good to See Gtx 290 coming. Ati comparrison isn't really fair, as ati 4870X2 is two GPU Card, while GTX series is single GPU. So like article states X2 is faster card, GTX (by nearly Twice) faster Gpu.
Extra Gpu Vs. Extra Time to ketchup.
drashek
Your numbers are out of whack
" Even with a theoretical 20 per cent lower power draw, you would be at 290W for a dual 55nm 260 clone. If you use a 260-216 or jack the clock up, you are at 300+W in an instant, and we can see 350W without trying hard."You might want to check out some actual power consumption tests before drawing those conclusions Charlie. Even at 65nm GT200 has similar power consumption to HD4870.
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3415&p=9
65nm GTX260-216 = 275W (-20% with 55nm = 220W)
65nm GTX280 = 313W (-20% with 55nm = 250W)
In comparison a 4870 draws 280W, while the 4870X2 draws 450W.
Charlie Demerjian
The ass end of computing industry. Welcome to Charlie Demerjian's werld.It certainly is nice to know your going to be a complete, lying prick for the rest of your life Charlie, god knows we don't actually need real facts when it comes to buying our graphics cards, just your whimisical pundits slant is enough to make an informed decision (and make goats puke).
I would say more, but you'll just lie about it anyway.
Doesn't matter
In the end, it doesn't really matter what NVidia does. AMD/ATI now has more funding than NVidia has and will ever have and they have split the foundry from the design company. The products that come from this AMD move will kick NV's butt, while NV continues to lose money and play the "card rename" and "die shrink" game. I'll be passing on that fire sale of NV cards that's about to erupt. Have fun Fanboys!!Bath
Wonder how many paid $650 for their 280 GTX? I got an OC version less than a month after the 280 was released for $390 or $410 without the mail in rebate. It's clear that a 280 wont keep up with a 4870x2 but it does keep up & even beats the 4870 in cetitles until you go past 4x AA..then the 4870 just eats the 280.Great job by ATI/AMD. Thanks for helping me save $250 on my card. Keep up the smart pricing & my next purchase is will be an ATI.
Cooling is a problem and so is power.
People (including Chuck) seem to forget that the biggest issue for cooling a GX2 is not that front GPU but that back GPU which is sandwiched in there right up against the hot back of the PCB in front of it. That makes it not only difficult for single slot cooling but also down righ inhospitable for any cooling that usually benefits from a cool surrounding environment.Their best possible hope for another dual PCB solution (bet they wish they did 256bit GDDR5 now to give them a chance for a nice single PCB solution) is for them to have the PCBs facing away from each other. And while this causes potential airflow turbulance, it's gotta be cooler than putting your HSF assembly right against the back of the other card.
Also, to AB, it's a known fact that the GTX260 actually uses more power when operating, it's a small difference, but when measuring the draw of the CARD (what is important here) and not the whole system, then you see that the GTX260 is indeed more frugal at idle and low 2D but jumps to just above the HD4870 when running in 3D. For AIBs and PSU makers that's going to be the important part, no whether the electrical bill goes up 0.1% more with one or the other because it stresses other system components differently leading to higher system usage.
Overall a GX2 card would be very difficult, and looking at the heat issue, the major benefit of the GTX is it's better HSF usage, whigh cools the chips well, whereas the HD4870 is running a lesser and cheaper cooler at lower stock speeds, a GX2 will not have those benefits of it's single GPU brothers.
Charlie nails a fanboy on the head.
The usual dumb fanboy comments again.The leakage gets bigger when the size of the manufacturing process gets smaller- 65nm Intel has a layer 5 atoms thick- the smaller the distances, the easier for electrons to cross over. That's why the need for special materials(Hf) for those gates.
NVidia fanboys
This comment made me laugh:"the author is paid by ATI"
From an article composed entirely of facts.
When speaking to one high ranking industry person I made the comment "Its (nvidia) is so cheap you could buy them if you wanted" the reply said it all "Why would I want to do that, its a tarnished brand what good is that to me?"
Charlie, Charlie...
Do you remember how all this hatred got started? I recall some event when the inquirer got left out of some reference card handout from nVidia (or was it some other piece of vip treatment) some time ago. I remember the inquirer got their feelings hurt and wrote about it. Since then this "journalist" Charlie has been on a vendetta, obsessed with hate and an urge for revenge. Apart from being childish in the eyes of us readers, it is also turning a little bit sick. To me, it is becomming so bad that the Inquirer is slowly becomming useless as a source of information regarding anything related to GPUs.I hope this Charlie guy is not to old so that we at least can excuse his immaturety on something and hope that he'll grow out of it.
One way to do the cooling
If Nvidia went to water cooling then they could make a 280 (or 290) X2 card that would not overheat. I think that a Zalman Reserator XT block should be sufficient to cool such a card (and it would only add about £270 to the cost!!!)Obviously not a fan of nVidia...
Heat generation from the new 55nm process would be considerably less than the 65nm GFX chips... and considering that 4870 runs a lot hotter and louder than most nVidia graphics cards, I don't think I see any issues here... AMD was never really good at running something very thermally efficient anyhow.By the way... "Seppuku" is the correct way to spell it. if you don't know the meaning, the history and a correct spelling of an ethnic tradition, you should stay clear of mentioning it in a public place, as you may just offend someone.
Power Numbers
For the person complaining about the power numbers being wrong - you're wrong.The 20% decrease is assumed for the GPU(s).
The RAM and other components aren't getting a shrink, and aren't getting a reduction in power.
This was even explained in the article.
From the perspective of a consumer, total power draw matters (hence typical review sites measuring this). From the perspective of a board manufacturer, the GPU's power consumption is what matters. That's what dictates what else you can slap on the board, how much cooling you need, etc.
This is a back-end analysis. It's meant to reveal what's going on behind the scenes with NV's partners, and the bottom line is that yet again they're releasing something that's not up to snuff, but naming it in a way to help their partners sell it at high prices.
The golden sample phenomenon (where no retail card ever lives up to benchmarks found review sites, because review sites get cherry-picked chips) gets worse with every shrink.
This article is a warning to consumers:
The new chips aren't all that great, don't trust early reviews.
The new chips will still be hot and suck power.
The new naming is designed to be confusing.
The older cards (280) are about to drop in price again.
Personally, I never trust any review where the reviewer didn't BUY the card at retail. I also don't trust any review that has the typical specs, charts, and marketing speak copied and pasted from the damned media kit.
For example, hundreds of "reviews" of Intel CPUs talk about Viiv. No one can tell you what Viiv is.
Not Common Knowledge
Below 90nm leakage per sqmm is increasing, *not* decreasing.The GTX line has a physical space problem in X2 mode that 4870 does not have. It takes 2X the number of GDDR3 memory to equal the same bandwidth as a single GDDR5 memory. Unless nV has switched to GDDR5, X2 boards are going to have difficulty squeezing all that GDDR3 memory onto them. There is a rumor that nV has recently purchased a small amount of GDDR5 DRAM, so perhaps they will have a limited number of X2 boards for Christmas.
It must be fun for them to be followers.
Oh wait - I forgot CUDA. lol like it matters.
Ati Fanboys are desperate to protect their favorite product
Sorry fanboys but290 GX2 >> 4870 X2
You can try to protect your favorite ATI product with words but things are going to change soon like it or not
NVIDIA IS GOING TO TAKE THE PERFORMANCE CROWN BACK IN THIS YEAR
Do not feel sorry that your expensive 4870X2 is going to be PWNED soon...
No need for immature arrogance just accept that a faster product is coming and is coming from NVIDIA like it or not...
Oh dear
Another wall of foam-flecked text that not even a mother could love. "Look, I'll disguise a crazy person's obsessive rant as news." Sigh. Come back, Sylvie, all is forgiven.called you stupid...
"Partners can't make money, and a name change will make the stupid fanbois out there line up."So nvidia has stupid fanboys and ATI has no fan boys at all? or has fan boys who are not stupid?!
Lame article.
I dont think this author is paid like another reader suggested, this c|r|a|p is not even worth being paid for.
So much hate...
Charlie has had a few questionable articles, I'll admit, but this isn't one of them, everything he say here is fact. I'm not a fan boy either way, but nVidia has been shit of late, either cherry picking facts or outright lying to customers. Anyone notice that all the review sites got overclocked GTX260-216's to review against the 4870's? and that the 4870's still had the edge is you went through the games and looked at max AA and AF (what people buying these cards actually want of course), yet the review sites either say its a tie or nVidia wins, what BS (I've built computers with both and its clear which card is stronger).At this point I want nVidia to die, they are a disgustingly dishonest bunch of people, and with Larrabee around the corner i think ATI getting the whole market for a bit for some extra cash and brand recognition would be a good thing, otherwise AMD is toast and well will be paying 495435038450 dollars for our next process.
Keep it up charlie, I wonder how many fan boy dooshebags actually realize that this is a 50/50 mix of reporting/trolling.
Ohh the LULZ
Well,
If you're going to make a pot shot at them referring to this launch as suicide, at least spell it right... SEPPUKURE Cool solution?
Have you seen a GTX280 factory heatsink? it is pretty amazing under the plastic cover, actually. Google it some time. It's certainly a *very good* stock cooler.There is always room for improvements, like TIM placement... and IC contact. The cooler it self is pretty legitimate.
The party starts
The party really starts when you have the factory overclocked gx2s coming out. Then you'll have things like the 'Superclocked KO nVidia Geforce GTX260-Core 216 gx2 Akimbo edition'. So much for sensible naming.And the heat will be a problem if they're going to make a dual PCB gx2. How exactly will they ever cool the gpu that's sandwiched between the two PCBs? Ati solved the whole problem by putting both gpus on a single PCB. That way they could have a good dual slot cooler to cool both gpus properly. That is the sensible way forward, even for the gx2.
charlie should work for apple marketing
because he's really good at spouting bullshit. so the 8800gt is now the 9800gtx? despite the difference in cores, clocks, board design, cooler design....i haven't seen so much spin since i last read a white house press release...
WHY THE HATRED NVIDIOTS?
Why the hatred nvidia fans w/out ati you would be paying THROUGH THE NOSE on every single nvidia card! ATI brings in new cards and your prices plummet, you should be kissing ATI's cherry red ass for all the money they are saving you...DUHH. ATI fans get great cards and you get great savings, stupid fanboys...X2 still reigns supreme
Seems like nvidia will be having trouble bringing out a top dog card in time for the x-mass games release.think i'll be sticking with my X2 a good while longer.
Very unprofessional article whoever the auther was. Stick to the facts in future and give the readers the info they want without the childish mud slinging.
Clearly Obsessed
I think you all need to see the bricks and water here… ATi is cheaper resulting in more overall power for every pound or dollar you pay, oh and the power consumption is better which is why ATi have no problems cooling their cards.Looking at it from a customer’s point of view… the NV cards are hot, expensive and you keep seeing these reports of faulty NV cards inside HP’s computer etc. When I buy a product I want it to be powerful, inexpensive and reliable.
Sorry but that leaves NV falling flat on their big stupid green face…
No I’m not a fan boy… I couldn’t care whether I buy an ATi card or NV, but by the looks of things ATi looks like it’s doing its job properly at the moment.
Oh and for the record... if one company was truly worse than the other, surly one would go bust? Prove me wrong...
Fanboys suck
@JeremiahWhen I was in the market for a card, ATi's cherry red ass was making sh*tty ass 2900 XTs. My money went to Nvidia.
Here's hoping things improve on their side again....I'll never forget those two 9800 pros in a row failing on me, in the exact same way, because of a GPU defect. Then again I've been shafted by nvidia too with nForce3 and the whole activearmor fiasco.
So, moral of the story...fanboys suck.
@ Steve
@ Steve,Sure, the gtx280 gx2 will pwn the 4870x2. But that is hardly the question. The question here is whether nV can make a 280 gx2, and the answer to that sadly for you, seems to be NO.