Toshiba master plan unveiled
Involves sticking it to Sony
SOME PEOPLE have been speculating about Toshiba’s so-called Super-Resolution Technology (SRT) and the “DVD Download DL” logo that has come up recently, as Tosh had registered this with the DVD Forum at their last Steering Committee.
We cornered a Toshiba suit at an event this morning and managed to extract some choice quotes about what’s Tosh’s strategy for this market in the near future, how SRT fits in and what the heck is DVD Download DL.
So here’s the low-down. SRT technology is what we all expected: a SpursEngine stuck in a DVD player that upscales your DVD resolution to something close to (but not quite) 1080p – similar to that Qosmio G55 proposition. The untrained eye is unlikely to tell the difference between this and 1080p HD. We’ve seen some of the upscaling demos and they are quite a bit better than your standard DVD.
For the vast majority of consumers with huge DVD libraries, this would be a Godsend. For those currently investing in Blu-ray, you’ll feel a bit more than annoyed, as you’ve been buying up Blu-ray discs at a premium and… lo and behold, here comes DVD again.
So what’s DVD Download DL? Well, according to our source, “DVD Download DL is about bringing additional movie features that DVD users would see in HD-DVDs, to the DVD player”. In essence, adding value to your pre-existing DVD collection by giving it content from HD discs. Yes. This means that Toshiba will release (Christmas 2008 in Japan is a good guess) an SRT-enabled, web-connected, DVD player that will automatically download extras according to the movie you’re playing. “We believe the future is the internet connection piping down movies to your home” added Mr. Anonymous.
Toshiba is also sponsoring development of the oh-so-important software/middleware that will support the SpursEngine consumer scene – and that would include the SpursEngine Developer’s Forum 2008, that started this Monday – most notable (and recent) of which is CRI Middleware’s deal to create a framework for other developers to… err… develop their own solutions.
So Tosh’s master plan is two-fold. First, they undermine the entire proposition of Blu-ray (and Blu-ray disc sales in particular), and then they skip the format war entirely and dump the whole thing down your fat internet connection. As you can imagine, details are sketchy as to how this will be done. There are a lot of questions to which answers aren’t set in stone at the moment. “We’ll continue to bet on DVD”, said the grinning chappie.
There are a lot of kinks to work out in this plan: regions are a problem, as content differs from region to region, and sometimes even within the same region; On the retail end of business, outside of Japan, Toshiba consumer electronics isn't exactly the first brand you’re looking at to buy as a DVD player; and then comes all the legal/licensing red tape and studio involvement that means getting those extra features to the consumer (ripping them off new Blu-ray discs would be good for starters).
Locally, we hear that Toshiba will be converging its laptop and CE businesses in order to make this possible. This is Europe, you see, and Toshiba isn't a huge player in the CE business. Leveraging it with the laptop business might give it the edge.
Parallel to all this, Toshiba is also striking deals within the PC market to license their SpursEngine technology as a hardware encoding/decoding solution for video editing pros. Leadtek, which presented their SpursEngine-based video editing card at Computex 2008, is one example, but we’re sure there are a lot more to come.
We don’t expect Sony to sit idly by while Toshiba flanks it this hard – Sony also has access to the CBE and is already selling its own cut-down video processing engine. How hard could it be to flip the firmware on the PS3 to do the same upscaling pony trick, even at the expense of Blu-ray sales?
The worst that can happen is this brings down pricing on the Blu-ray faster than Sony’s official marketing plan, meaning the consumer ends up winning all-round.
A big thanks goes out to Nick Trakosas who pointed out the SRT news in the press and fed me some links on the matter. µ
Comments
Sony
won't have to worry too much. The press showing of the technology gathered the unenviable tag line of "fanciful nonsense" from reporters that saw the technology. Technology, incidentally, that they didn't show next to a Blu-ray video. Toshiba is apparently afraid to show it off next to BD even in a "Monster Cable" style contest.The real problem here is the fact that it's interpolation. Fancy sounding interpolation, with fancy sounding algorithms, but interpolation nonetheless. This means that while it will work in certain situations (in some movies more than others) it still just a gimmick.
Toshiba is going to bend themselves over for another financial reaming with this "master plan" because they have to compete against (on the low end) DVD upscalers that sell for 40 bucks, or true HD Blu-ray players that are rapidly dropping in price as the holidays approach. Several of my friends have a pool going as to how low the 2.0 and 1.1 players are going to be over the holiday buying season. I went with 125 (1.1) and 200 (2.0). Remember that all 1.1 players can watch the movies but not access web content.
I don't know whom is in charge of the CE development at Toshiba, but s/he should have her/his head examined. DVD Download is also one of the most freaking hilarious things I've heard of in recent memory. Most people don't even consider hooking up their DVD player to the net. Heck, even many HD-DVD and Blu-Ray people don't hook it up to the net very often. Well, other than gaming consoles.
Don't forget that Toshiba is, a la TL-51 vaporware, looking at increasing the data size of DVD's. Again, as with TL-51, how current players would read this new format is a mystery. Incompatible discs and player combinations would be truly hilarious for all but the consumer suckered into buying one.
They could end up forking DVD, and ironically hasten it's demise, by releasing these items. Quite hilarious if you ask me. Toshiba lost the first Great Optical Patent War, and is foolish enough to try launching the GOPWII? I'm going to be short-selling Toshiba at this rate...
Blu-ray isn't perfect. Like DVD at the beginning, it's expensive, people are questioning the quality improvement, et al. Like DVD it's slowly been knocking it's issues down, and moving ahead. Looks like Toshiba wants to stay in the past to protect their patents.
Upscaling = same crappy pic just bigger
no matter how good any 'upscaling' is, it's not going to add any detail.Your never going to be able to count hairs of that hot actress, or read the newspaper scrap in the background.. with full high def and 1:1 pixel mapping you probably could.
Skip the format war entirely?!
Soooooo... Tosiba plans to skip the format war entirely? Isn't it a little late for that?Its Still NOt Same.
Your Could burn DVD-R DL with 1080P, I Guess, yet Tosh is offerring something for 480P/720P Crowd. You Have to BUY Monitor that displays 1080P to get Blu-Ray Power & Widescreen. So its above Most Computer Monitors Capability & probably anyone needing tosh science has smaller screen & lower Pixel resolution than Blu-Ray.There both Good in Right Enviorment, Just make sure your system is compatible thruout.
drashek
PS3 can already do this
.. in theory. It's plain vanilla DVD upscaling is already quite amazing. As most are likely connected to the internet in some regard, I'm sure a spare cell can download whatever goodies the Toshiba camp is cooking up.Upscale Blu-ray
Why don't they make 3840X2160 monitors and then upscale Blu-ray to that? This is waht they should be working on. Not nonsense that broadcast HDTV will look better than.Blue Blue Rays!
Good article,Thank you, I somehow knew I had to stick to my regular DVD movie collection. I will not get rid of them for a new format.
I know, this is only for HD DVD's? But what stops anybody else doing it for plain DVD's?
Great idea!
All that's left if to put a SRT in the PS3, Xbox 360 ect and there goes the need for any standalone dvd, blue ray players. Just need something to play vids on that will play old dvds. All media content will be online at some point anyway.toshiba wants anything to stick
Look, I have a huge HD DVD library and always believed it to be superior to Blu-ray for a number of reasons, but Toshiba is retarded.People want real HD, not upscaling at this point. Blu-ray isn't the only option for "real" HD movies. For a few bucks I can watch all the new movies in HD with VOD. The quality cannot quite match optical, but for 5-6 dollars to watch Harold and Kumar: Guantanamo Bay, who cares?
Toshiba is right to see Blu-ray as vulnerable, but seriously this is a terrible strategy.
It DOESN'T MATTER if it isn't full-res: megapixels don't matter anymore...
Look at the pro photogs using cameras *other* than the 20+ Mpx monsters, for their work...Deliberately.
( where's the business-case for that resolution when you aren't printing at 16"x20"? )
Similarly, if you are viewing your TV at more than 18", then pixel-by-pixel doesn't matter, except at the *edges*, and this is exactly what *smart* upscaling can do: interpolate, but make the edges crisp, so you get that *definition* ( read about Genuine Fractals, which has used edge-uprezzing for many years, fractally, er, frankly... ; )
Bang/Buck: uprezzed DVD is entirely Good Enough, per dollar.
The difference between 'em, when viewed side by side, *in normal viewing conditions*
( probably on a non-calibrated TV, too )
isn't enough to justify the price premium.
Period.
Let the law breaking monopolist ( rootkit, stealing other's code, memory stick strongarming, etc, anyone? ) be hit hardly, by this.
: )
upscaling pony trick?
"How hard could it be to flip the firmware on the PS3 to do the same upscaling pony trick?"It's easy. to get the PS3 to upscale your DVDs to 1080P, simply...
1: Plug it in (both to AC and to a HDMI 1080P TV).
2: Turn it on.
3: Insert a Dvd
4: Press play
I do realize that this method is cost prohibitive, as it requires the purchase of a PS3, a HDTV, and a DVD. Also, it has a steep learning curve associated with it, with troubling acronyms like "PS3", "DVD" and "TV". The only saving grace is that I'm being extremely sarcastic.
er...
Doesnt the ps3 already have a dvd upscaler???leilapchi@hotmail.com
tosh can suck my dd for all i carewhats the point to release HD-DVD in the first place then?
mentally challenged? or to trick us (the consumer)
gtfo of here tosh, i am not buying into these HD sh!t, so much hype but zero benefits really.
show me something new, 3D pictures please, and 0 disc, save the earth, just download and store in hard drive, make so much more sense.
Right
Just another bash on Blu-Ray by people who bought too many DVD titles and now are angry about buying them again. NOTHING is anywhere near the look of the real thing. You'll just buy the scaling device now and the Blu-Ray later. If you actually care about how your great new LCD displays, you're gonna get one. Wait a couple months and save all around.Upscaling
Doesn't matter if a PS3 or whatever upscales or not. If you feed a signal to a 1080 display it will be upscaled by the TV to 1080 anyway.If it didn't, you'd be watching DVD's and SDTV in a little box in the centre of the screen.
Quality just depends on if the upscaling technology in your external DVD/PS3 box is better than the upscaling technology in your TV.
Wrong drum, people
The issue is not about whether or not upscaling is good. The PC game industry had the same arguments a decade ago over anti-aliasing, and now the standard is 8x (going on 16), so that argument is basically already over.No, the real addition to this arena is the downloadable content for existing DVDs, and that is something that I like very, very much.
I have over 450 DVDs (all bought legally, I might add), and I have no interest in paying all over for a DRM-infested Blu-Ray version, whatever the quality may be.
However, getting more content for the films I already have, yeah, that sounds real good.
Bring it on, Tosh ! And good on you !
Where is my DTS HD/TrueHD ?
This fiasco has already led me to drop Toshiba completely. I will NOT buy another Toshiba product.One of the things I love most about my Blu Ray is the DTS MA HD and TrueHD soundtracks. To me this is as if not more important to the movie itself. Is SUC going to do that? Of course not.
Sour grapes Tosh, sour grapes !
Misleading
This article is a bit misleading at times and should be corrected.Is the SRT technology better than standard DVD?
-Of course it is-
It is supposed to be a high tech version of upscaling right?
So why even declare that it looks "better than DVD"? Kinda like saying that water is wet...
But, how does it look when doing a side by side with a DVD upscaled well to 1080p? How does it look compared side by side with a Blu Ray 1080p?
Those are the tests that Toshiba try to evade atm, just saying that they will bring DVDs "close to Blu Ray quality".
Duh, all Upscalers already say that, it's a matter of appreciation though, right? "Close" is a tad vague ;)
Now given that Blu Ray players already offer upscaling of standard DVDs -PLUS- the great looking pure Full HD 1080p BR playback, -and- BD Live content developped by companies for BR releases (do you seriously think companies are going to go back on already existing DVDs to produce Free content? Yeah right), the Toshiba technology is as close as anything to being still born.
They would have to massively discount that new technology (players including storage, a spurrs engine and NICs can't be cheap to make) to compete vs Blu Ray decks at Xmas (likely at or under $250).
We are poised to see Toshiba crash and burn -again-, that's funny at this point...
DVD upscaling
A waste of time. There have been upscaling DVD players for years (and free upscaling PC software). I know that the upscaling algorithms that Intel was working on years ago were the best, but required way too much processing power, but with Spurs, maybe. This would be a significant improvement. On the other side, Sony could command it's PS3 to upscale Bluray, giving 8mp SHD, maybe easily (as it probably wont require as much processing power per pixel to get moderate results, as to get DVD to compete with BD per pixel). On the other hand, a number of HD TV's have contained upscaling circuit features for years.But the problem you face with intelligent upscaling is loss, and a standard DVD has huge amounts of it compared to the original. Loss of detail is one. BD, when properly compressed in H264 at blistering bit-rates, contains much more information to start with.
The possible winners for Toshiba would be, download/streaming (I think Sony is setting something up for the PS3) and if they use that Spurs engine to play games. The spurs being based on the Cell, which was jointly manufactured until Sony pulled out within months of Toshiba dropping the HDDVD.
Still, they would have been better off following what I said before, the cheaper Ambarella technology, doubling the layers for extra data/or using the difference from the predicted upscaled version to enhance it. Maybe also dropping the DVD res a bit to allow more data (helps more when not doubling the layers). A disk that runs as a standard DVD and as a true HD disk based on standard DVD manufacture.