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Nvidia GTX260 and 280 revealed

Missed targets and low yield

NVIDIA STAGED ITS regular editors' day, and once again, we were not invited. Luckily, that means we can tell you about it early.

With the usual flair of spin and statistics which almost no one questions for fear of being cut off, NV talked about two new GPUs, the GTX280 and GTX260. The 280 is the big one, the 260 is the mid range, what used to be the GTS.

The 280 has 240 stream processors and runs at a clock of 602MHz, a massive miss on what the firm intended. The processor clock runs at 1296MHz and the memory is at 1107MHz. The high-end part has 1G of GDDR3 at 512b width. This means that they are pretty much stuck offering 1G cards, not a great design choice here.

The 280 has 32ROPs and feeds them with a six and eight-pin PCIe connector. Remember NV mocking ATI over the eight-pin when the 2900 launched, and how they said they would never use it? The phrase 'hypocritical worms' come to mind, especially since it was on their roadmap at the time. This beast takes 236W max, so all those of you who bought mongo PSUs may have to reinvest if they ever get three or four-way SLI functional.

The cards are 10.5-inch parts, and each one will put out 933GFLOPS. Looks like they missed the magic teraflop number by a good margin. Remember we said they missed the clock frequencies by a lot? Here is where it must sting a bit more than usual, sorry NV, no cigar.

The smaller brother, aka low-yield, salvage part, the GTX260 is basically the same chips with 192 SPs and 896M GDDR3. If you are maths-impaired, let me point out that this equates to 24 ROPs.

The clocks are 576MHz GPU, 999MHz memory and 896MHz GDDR3 on a 448b memory interface. The power is fed by two six-pin connectors. Power consumption for this 10.5-inch board is 182W.

This may look good on paper, but the die is over 550mm, 576 according to Theo, on the usual TSMC 65nm process. If you recall, last quarter NV blamed its tanking margins on the G92 yields.

How do you fix a low yield problem? Well, in Nvidia-land, you simply add massive die area to a part so the yields go farther down. 576 / 325 = 1.77x. Hands up anyone who thinks this will help them meet the margin goals they promised? Remember, markets are closed Monday, so if you sleep in, no loss.

The 260 will be priced at $449 and go up against the ATI 770/4870 costing MUCH less. The 280 will be about 25 per cent faster and quite likely lose badly to the R700, very badly, but cost more, $600+.

As we said, it is going to be an interesting summer. µ

Comments

Math impaired?

You should recheck your math there Charlie...that should be 28 ROPs for 896MB on a 448-bit bus ;)
posted by : dwong, 24 May 2008

let's wait and see

Let's wait for the reviews to see who comes out as the winner.
posted by : ab, 24 May 2008

Yawn

WHEN will you grow up charlie?? You bring this site down even further.

All your articles are extremely bias immature jokes. I cant believe you're a grown man.
posted by : B, 24 May 2008

Typical Charlie here... All hail Saint 'ye Hector of DAAMIT!

"not a great design choice here."

What's a GREAT design for you mr DAAMIT Salesman?

Typical Charlie here... All hail Saint 'ye Hector of DAAMIT! May Charlie and the fanbois be with you!!!
posted by : Fuad, 24 May 2008

Stop the hate, start the facts.

"The 280 will be about 25 per cent faster and quite likely lose badly to the R700, very badly, but cost more, $600+."

A typical act of desperation from a typical salesman i would say.

May saint Hector bless you!
posted by : Theolich, 24 May 2008

Hardware is almost irrelevant

nVidia spend/bribe game makers so much that they almost always come out on top.
AMD/ATi need to spend some money of games if their cards are to fly. I think they are doing a great job on Price to Perfomance and i would never spend £400 on a Graphics Card anyway but if they just improved there game support and got polished drivers out sooner then they would win hands down.
posted by : nVidia CEO, 24 May 2008

1+1=?

"If you are maths-impaired, let me point out that this equates to 24 ROPs"

LOL! It's 28! What a tool!!!
posted by : haha, 24 May 2008

Blah blah

And in the real world Nvidia is faster than always, but you want to hide that fact, don't you. The same mocking and hype as with R600. Oh dear...
posted by : az, 24 May 2008

Any HDMI?

CupCakes States:"Wheres My Built-In Audio?". Poor kitty, after learning to Play Kitty Games, MOSH of Card Needs to Explore onBoard HDMI Audio.

Well if Your Stuck With Nvidia Based Mainboard, its best ye can muster, whatever it does. It May Be Whaler, Yet its Far From Great White Whale of Yore.
Think double ought Nine & 2,000 Stream Processors for Rebuke.
Oh,My.Wheres My License?
Drashek
posted by : Thomas_Jenson, 24 May 2008

math?

/["The smaller brother, aka low-yield, salvage part, the GTX260 is basically the same chips with 192 SPs and 896M GDDR3. If you are maths-impaired, let me point out that this equates to 24 ROPs"]/

sounds like YOU are the one that cant do math. 448bit will be 28 ROP if 512bit is 32 ROP.
posted by : trek554, 24 May 2008

Well...

Let's see how the cards will perform. I really don't know which one will be faster. Of course, if you only read INQ-articles you might think AMD will win with a huge margin and cost you $100000 less.

So, I would recommend anyone to wait how the cards will perform (speed, power, heat, temperature, ...) and don't buy a card based on any article by AMD-fanb...errr....sorry...i meant the totally unbiased people at INQ.
posted by : K. Wenge, 24 May 2008

:thumbs:

Nice hatchet job. :D
posted by : Paul, 24 May 2008

Hrmmmmm

I am an ATI fanboy always have been and for their sake I hope your right, they could use the money to increase their R&D budget and stop the exodus of ATI employees. I just hope a 256bit external bus wont barstardise the point of having GDDR5 ram. Atleast the internal bus is still 512bit. Remember the 3870 x2? It did not sync well with a pci express 1.0 interconnect chip. If the 4870 x2 comes with 512bit and pci 2.0 chip interconnect then it should be a beast. I just wish they would bring this out now rather than july. I cant help but wonder if thats a tactical move though to trump nvidia's high end after they have released their new generation chips.
posted by : Rory Christensen, 24 May 2008

Insert....

Nelson laugh here!! Ha ha!!
posted by : Skulltrail, 24 May 2008

oh

Wow, you are really mean. Some Nvidia PR guy gotta get a stroke reading this article full of genuine praise.

Keep up the mean work :)
posted by : Axloth, 24 May 2008

that's made my day

that's made my day, always said nvidia are one bad product away from opening up SLI on other chip sets
posted by : will, 24 May 2008

mathematically impaired

"Mathematically impaired" - somebody is....:)
448bit is connected with 28 ROP
posted by : kris, 24 May 2008

Good article Charlie

Good article Charlie.Seems Nv has a hude low yield die on it's hands and will be up against 2 much smaller dice which will cost a lot less to make.
posted by : anti-Periander, 24 May 2008

Frequencies

Geez, get those frequencies right, will you? GTX "280 has 240 stream processors and runs at a clock of 602MHz" - so this is the GPU? But wait, then there's "The processor clock runs at 1296MHz and the memory is at 1107MHz". So, is this processor the GPU?
Later on, for the GTX 260 you say "The clocks are 576MHz GPU, 999MHz memory and 896MHz GDDR3". So which one is for the memory? Can only guess...
And how about all those units there. Shouldn't be all rounded a little?
posted by : AlexTRoopeR, 24 May 2008

Charlie predicts disaster for NVIDIA, Film at 11

Yup, it will be a disaster. Another 'patchy' part, just like the G80:

http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2006/09/13/nvidia-g80-mystery-starts-thickening

posted by : Geoff Langdale, 24 May 2008

Put a smile on my face

Hopefully ATI now has a run for top dog, since it was getting annoying for Nvidia to hold that for so long.
posted by : scott, 25 May 2008

NV Lies

This smells of typical NV lies ... this time they have you believing they won't hit the magic number 1 Tb.

What you have to realise is that their CEO religiously adheres to the "Art of War".

This makes him highly predictable now ...

Sure the numbers and the die size suggest poor numbers but they will get enough to "paper launch" a few cores for a high end part.

Like the Ultras ... that were never on the shelves.

I won't buy NV cards anymore because their image quality is just too poor.

That's how they get the FPS ... sacrificing image quality for speed.

Magic Number 9 ???

posted by : Reynod, 25 May 2008

Sour Grapes?

There is some interesting information in this article but such heavy bias makes it hard to get at.
To be clear, I think some of the criticisms are right on, and I have nothing for or against either ATI/AMD or Nvidia, but this bias and skewed views in this article are staggering.
First of all this, is a new high end "halo" part, not meant to be on sub $200 mass market card. The G96 is slaying in that area.
I think the 4870 sounds like a great part and there's a good chance it will be my next card, but there's a lot of variables left to be determined.
First of all, the prices are clearly up in the air. At this point, probably even Nvidia hasn't determined 100% what it's going to be at launch - it probably depends on the relative price/performance of the 4870. Secondly it probably depends on 4870 availability. We've all seen the reports that the 4870 might be a paper launch with real availability not there until August.
This article makes it sound like 1GB is a requirement, I bet 512MB cards will be available too - there's no reason that you can't have a 512bit 512MB card.
Finally, I also doubt the clocks are locked. The specs on the 260 here also seem different from some of the other specs floating around, and let's face it, the Inq has a horrible track record for predicting the final outcome of past performance comparisons, especially since their new found bile has made them bet against Nvidia repeatedly in the last few launches, and has found them repeatedly wrong.
I expect ATI to make a strong come back with the 4xxx series, but I don't expect Nvidia to either price themselves out of the market or to fall far behind in performance.
posted by : sethk, 25 May 2008

What I miss....

I thought you would have learned your lesson when it was ATi's 2900 series vs. nvidias 8800 series.

You slammed nvidia and praised ATi for their long awaited comeback. When your predictions were wrong you howled about how ATi gave more bang for the buck. Always looking for a redeeming quality in Ati and trying to villainize nvidia.

I am not dismissing ATi, but an unbiased reporter should realize that the odds are still in nvidias favor and reserve atleast some judgment for when the new cards see the light of day.

Charlie just seems so pissed that ATi might lose again. Why else resort to name calling like "hypocritical worms", accuse nvidia of bad design choices and cutting off critics?

I don't care who wins to be honest. I just want to see a big leap forward in graphics horsepower.
posted by : Todd, 25 May 2008

Ca'chiing!!! Good job!!!

Another cheque from DAAMIT coming up!!! Keep up the good work!
posted by : Hector, 25 May 2008

You're such a fanboy Charlie

At least you didn't post made-up 3D Mark scores this time.

posted by : slackshoe, 25 May 2008

Nice try...

"If you are maths-impaired, let me point out that this equates to 24 ROPs.

Make that 28 ROPS...
posted by : recidivist, 25 May 2008

Charlie is an idiot

In a few weeks we will have these chips in the market. Then, we can see if the 280 will "quite likely very badly lose" to the R700 as Charlie states.

When these chips come out, Charlie and all readers will understand why an idiot like him does not get invited by NVIDIA; NVIDIA does not invite ignorant idiots. :)

posted by : samcal, 25 May 2008

GTX260

> If you are maths-impaired, let me point out that this equates to 24 ROPs.

Actually its 28 ROPs.
posted by : suns, 25 May 2008

WOW..lol

Well Of course they did they always do.Lets Inflate what we say the chip is gona do so everyone will go OMG I WANT ONE! untill they see the real chip and then people will be like wth its not much faster than the one I have now!LIKE THEY DID WITH THE LAST 2 GEN CARDS! WAY TO GO NVIDIA!Friggin retards!WTH?!
posted by : Pitbull, 25 May 2008

lol...

no wonder nvidia show slides specifically asking people NOT to talk to the inq. ;)

I just wish i knew more about the R700 *hint*hint* ^_^
posted by : Raven737, 25 May 2008

Like anyone will buy into your bias :]

I remember a time when people actually took heed of what this site said!

How the mighty have fallen. . .
posted by : Heh, 25 May 2008

Author deserves flames

Fanboy. R700 to outperform the GTX 280? On what basis do you say that? Take your head out of ATI's ass and remember the highend R700 will perform on par with a 3870 X2 at best, according to its specs.

It costs less because it simply wont sell at a higher price.
posted by : Bob Rock, 25 May 2008

bitter much?

No wonder you didn't get an invite if this is the type of drivel you write up.

Totally unbiased as always eh ;)
posted by : Sourgrapes, 26 May 2008

GTX260 at least looks me...

Going by the latest at any rate:

http://www.hardware-infos.com/news.php?news=2092

Less shader horsepower, less texture fill rate and less bandwidth than the 8800 Ultra. Yeah, that thing's REALLY next gen. ._.;
posted by : Lightnix, 26 May 2008

Why?

Call me an Nvidia fanboy, but how can you level such accusations, and slander against a company that right now, absolutely dominates the high end market as far as speed is concerned? They're also on course to dominate the mid range market with the 9600 GT's, and 8800 GT's.

Obviously this article was meant to get a response, and a rise out of people, but next time, try to be a little less obvious about it. This is just childish, and silly. The cards haven't even been released, and you're speculating on their performance, compared to another un-released part from another company? Wait for the reviews, and see who comes out on top... either way, most of us won't be buying either one of these high end parts, because they're simply out of our price range, nor will we by the ATI part... again, out of our price range.

I don't know where you got your degree in journalism, but I have a suspicion it may have been from ITT Tech, or University of Phoenix... either way, this is just an embarassing piece of reporting.
posted by : Jake, 26 May 2008

..Charlie and his quadfrie..

..Charlie, it seems you missed 4 ROPS somewhere as you did your 'impartiality'. I'm betting you own a few ATI parts and wish they were all 9700pro - not gonna happen!! I also had/have respect for INQ but this sort of rubbish just degrades the brand. From my research(you do remember research Charlie?), the R700 is anything from a rehash of RV670 to being a modular, 4 chip, interconnecting design - care to tell us about R700 Charlie, given that's what we all want to know?
posted by : whats happened to INQ?, 26 May 2008

Hilarious thread!

Keep it up charlie, you're awesome.

posted by : Mikey, 26 May 2008

High tech will win

Currently ATi has technological superiority to nV. Better DDR, better arhitecture, more capabilities (96x5 can do at least 2x nVidia if proper coding is used).
It will all come down to brute force vs. high tech, and eventually the higher tech (that's ATi) will win, just like AMD won vs. the GHz race of intel a while ago. Intel then had no choice but to tech up and it did. So will nVidia.
posted by : Overmind, 26 May 2008

Yet again,

I would just like to reiterate what a few hundred people have said prior. It is actually 28 ROPs . . . you tool bitch.
posted by : Patteh, 26 May 2008

Who is this guy "Drashek"?

Man, It's have been months reading your comments all around L'Inq articles... I assume english its not your mother language (neither mine) but please.... LEARN SOME ENGLISH BEFORE POSTING
all your comments are ininteligible crap..
with love... Joss21
posted by : Joss21, 26 May 2008

Different developments

Thanks Charlie for the update about internal developments.

But boy what do I read many nVidia fanboy blatter.

Some facts: ATI has had severe bugs and massive internal organisation shift (DAAMIT) that got it approximately 8 months behind nVidia.
So it happened.
NOW, ATI part of the DAAMIT organisation did make a potential great architecture and enhanced the flaws somewhat by bringing out RV670.
Sorry for you nVidia fanboys, but the professional ATI cards based on RV670 outperform the nVidia G80 technology by a large margin while costing much much less. In fact, the total impression gives that professional RV670 TEARS nVidia APART.
Cold hard facts. Get over it.

ATI is smart: they chose to lower manufacturing costs with high yields. But there is more: the cards need few power, provide good enough horsepower and is relatively cheap for the customer.
HOWEVER, this RV670 had to make up for the 8 months behind schedule debacle and they got close to nVidia (G80 GT is still a bit better).
But ATI's performance by updating its hardware is impressive to say the least.

Right now, ATI is further extending the lead with even lower manufacturing costs, higher yields, lower power usage and higher performance of their cards.
Remember, DAAMIT has very good technology IP on their hand.

We customers can only applaud the direction ATI follows.
And it even has DX10.1/SM4.1 which can indeed bring massive performance gains with AA.

And nVidia...well...big monolithic cores, much heat, much power, high production costs, low yields.
They will let the customer pay and they don't even have Dx10.1/SM4.1 which S3 has just began to use!
They are scared of failure so they take the safe routine by using power hungry and ancient GDDR3 memory!
No guts, no glory!

Sorry nVidia, its time to duck away!
posted by : DingieM, 26 May 2008

go on charlie

go on charlie, like to see a man kick up a shit storm
posted by : will21, 26 May 2008

Always on

Any mention of any powerplay features on them GTXs?

No?

To hell with Nvidia then.
posted by : FAR, 27 May 2008

Learn about "Bias"

"Yawn
WHEN will you grow up charlie?? You bring this site down even further.

All your articles are extremely bias immature jokes. I cant believe you're a grown man."

I see the word "bias" used incorrectly by fanboys all over the internet, though it's concentrated for some odd reason in the nV vs. AMD and MS vs. Mac threads. You mean to say that the jokes are "biased," not "bias." One who has a bias is biased. A comment that is based on a bias is biased. Neither are "bias."
posted by : James Polk, 29 May 2008

PSU killer

it has horrible power consumption. 236 Watts for 280 .. My PSU will burn down :(
posted by : venekirsa, 02 June 2008

yawn indeed

Biased, poorly written, and generally immature. This person hasn't the first idea. And, yeah, the maths is wrong.

Get rid of this author.
posted by : cspec, 04 June 2008

Baseless rumours...

This was once a respected site, by now you have ATI fanboys like Charlie spread false rumours. This has nothing to do with journalism anymore.
posted by : Hammerstein, 06 June 2008

Just another paid AD brought to you by DAAMIT

look at this mr.daamit salesman:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1309376

with the recent trend you are showing with all your articles, all the people (not fanbois, nor NV) are already convinced that you are hired by DAAMIT just to spread black propaganda against their competitor. what you're spreading doesn't help the industry a bit. it doesn't even make DAAMIT look better spreading half-truth information like this?

look, where did all the praises did to the 2900XT lead you? silence? censorship of opinion? and why did you not reveal then that the GF 9600GT is a 256-bit part? was it because it will make its DAAMIT counterpart look bad for the mainstream?

this is much much worse than what you dreadfully call NDA that major companies are imposing! because what you're doing is just skewing the FACTS!

your (or the INQ's) hatred towards nvidia has been too much that it has affected your judgement as a journalists that should report FACTS.

its sad that a journalist like you had to go so low that it skewed your entire judgement just for red cash being paid at you... pitiful!

too bad tom's had the audacity to hire you.
posted by : Fudo, 08 June 2008

Always wrong

Charlie has been proved to be totally wrong about all the things he said about the 9800gx2 and 9800gtx. To me his articles are totally ATI bias and I can understand why nvidia would not want you in their 'circle' .. Or it's that because of Charlie nvidia does not deem this site to be trust worthy. This guy really bring the site down, its like he's just a cheesy tabloid writer who can't get hired by the ny times.. oh maybe thats true..
posted by : Norm, 09 June 2008

kk?

Listen guys, stop being fanboys and getting mid-range PC's beceause your company did not release any real High-End cards. If you look closer at the ATI cards, they are like... better in MHZ and all shit, but in practice they aren't better than the 1 1/2 years old G80. The thing is that what we really want is simple: BEAST CARDS or GOOD-FOR-COST cards. stop crying about YOUR company and just WAIT THE BENCHMARKS, AND BUY THE BEST. Good day.
posted by : Phenixer, 12 June 2008

bias much?

This must be one of the worst openly bias, immature, unprofessional pieces of work I have read in a good while. Being one of the first times reading an inquirer article, I’ll be sure not to take the site seriously again!
posted by : DL, 23 June 2008

ooh

no one has apologised for the bashing! seems this wasn't a biased article. good work!
posted by : sire, 03 July 2008
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