Tue 14 Oct 2008

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Both ATI and Nvidia are losing their mojo

Comment Multi-card mayhem is missing the point

AT CES this year both "leading" graphics vendors have gone on the cheap to bundle two of the current offerings on one card and claim a new generation in performance.

So, each GPU on such multi GPU card, whether it's HD3870X2 or GeForce 9800GX2, has its own memory which simply means lots of data duplication and wastage. The two GPUs are connected over PCI bridge chips, which means extra latency; sharing the outside PCI-E x16 v2 link - read: possible (but not seen too often) contention between the two.

Did we mention that current software is hardly being optimised for all that SLI and Crossfire stuff? In most cases - GPGPU excluded - one fast GPU is still way better than two slower GPUs at the same price and power consumption.

Then, we come to the physical implementation. DAAMIT at least had some common sense to put both GPUs and stuff on a single card. Therefore, if someone wants to do so, we could still have a cool yet efficient, one-slot waterblock like those from Vadim Computers in Old Blighty, for instance.

That means, a dual-card, quad-GPU CrossFireX on an Intel X48 or Seaburg-chipset mobo - or the odd Phenom around, for those who just don't give up - won't block all the remaining I/O slots.

Well, at least the product is correctly named: 3870X2 really is TWO 3870s put together - even the clock speeds are expected to be basically the same.

On the other hand, Nvidia created a double-decker PCB monster not unlike the old, infamous 7950GX2. The (mis)named 9800GX2 is in reality just two "new" 8800GTS-512 units put together, giving each "half" its own PCB.

Right, there go any hopes of that thing having single-slot cooling options, and therefore any hopes of us endorsing that to anyone, anywhere. Where are all those D9E, D9P and other new-generation chips? And, with such odd naming scheme, how to compare the 9800GX2 with a future 9800GTX then?

Now, why should Nvidia bother at all? DAAMIT was slow, they still can't beat the over-a-year-old 8800GTX or Ultra yet. Why not just take a nap, rest on their laurels, pick up extra profits and, occasionally, spin a process shrink of a few GPUs with some (incomplete) fixes like HD playback, for instance.

Sure, but DAAMIT right now lives off those GPUs and their management, no matter how inept, will not - cannot - let the GPUs fall behind any further. Plus, looking at the K10 woes, methinks the GPU fix will be far easier.

Nvidia should be concerned - not just because the dual 3870X2 will make for a potentially more elegant watercooled quad-GPU solution, but because of what the R700 will bring in, once its multiple MCM-ed GPUs don't need to use PCI-Express to talk to each other - a critical GPGPU performance jump enabler. Nvidia, needs to speed up the launch of high-end D9 series, rather than sit on it.

Nvidians can continue to snooze, but things are coming to their right place - look at DAAMIT's FireGL profi card improvements and how they shook Quadro, as a prelude of the things to come.

And un the centre, Intel is not slowing down, neither on Nehalem, nor on the Larabee. The unhealthy airs in the current GPU market, from the product refresh delays to the GPU vendors' attitudes, will only help push the Taiwanese OEMs even further towards Intel's GPUs, across the board.

And, sad to say for the competitive environment, Intel has learned - the hard way - to listen and adapt quickly. µ

Comments

multi core CPU good, multi GPU bad

Huh? As the die shrink process gets better and better, the trend will be to multi GPU cards, in a similar fashion to multi core CPUs. And the 7950GX2 was not infamous. It was no better or worse an option than any other SLI or Crossfire setup. The drivers were what limited the hardware.
posted by : Jay Bloomfield, 10 January 2008

Dammit

why did daamit not use hypertransport between the 2 GPU's? After all they do have some experience with that transport bus. I guess the 2 engineering teams, cpu and gpu, have not been talking to eachother. Is there still some friction in this marriage or do they just not care?
posted by : john, 10 January 2008

good article

I guess they do the SLI/Xfire thing to claim top honors but very few people buy them - and the drivers dont work right - give me a single GPUany day (until the drivers get better).

Intel and Larrabie? What is this - their 5th, 6th, 10th attempt at a graphics solution? Intel will never succeed because they are driven by committee's. Zero vision. NV goes through serious pain on their drivers - have you seen Intel drivers? Some of the worst on the planet...In the end it will be just good enough to be sucked into a chipset so we can play DukeNukem (the original) at 10fps.
(800x600).
Cheers
posted by : guest, 10 January 2008

NVIDIA's Doomed

We've been hearing this bull since the Radeon 8500 came out in 2001. Intel, ATI, and AMD have all made some serious mistakes, but you try to make NVIDIA's sound fatal. Why not eat a whole lot of humble pie and make nice with the Green Team? They keep winning, and you keep losing out to Kyle, Anand, and Tom's crew. ATI won't be your John forever.
posted by : Dennis Stanton, 10 January 2008

Video cards a-go-go

Nice comment article. But here's what I think is really killing the GPU market.

HDTV and HD movies and HD gaming. Xbox360 and PS3 produce HD graphics that are 'good enough' for most people. The cost of a premium video card for gaming is about the same as a PS3 or an Elite 360. That's ridiculous.

Mainstream cards in the $50 to $150 range are what is needed here. Building a dual, triple or quad GPU solution for gaming is an expensive way to make a game run. What the hell is the point of game devs killing themselves to get DirectX10.1 working when a fraction of the audience has that capability. Why bother making a game that uses so many effects that it obliterates decently performing systems forcing users to upgrade to play a game.

PC gaming has a future if, and only if, game developers start programming to the mainstream. You shouldn't have to add a video card to a standard PC merely to play a few games on your PC. The implication here is that ATI and Nvidia have a future if they can manage to deliver mainstream performance cards that don't cost an arm and a leg, and convince system integrators to offer systems using them instead of integrated graphics. At the same time as this, they have to convince game developers and publishers to stop shooting for the 1% of PC owners who are prepared to drop $500-$1000 in order to play the latest $50 game at 60 frames per second.
posted by : Highlander, 10 January 2008

not a bad idea

I don't think the new approach is misguided

in the HD2XXX generation, AMD, just like nVidia, eliminated the midrange, concentrating only on high-end and low-end

with the HD3XXX generation, AMD dedicated itself to the mid-range and the low-end, leaving the high-end to unelegant and impractical dual chip solutions

I think this second approach is the better one, as low-end and midrange is where the real money is: high-end is only for headline grabbing and consumer mindshare, which are also important but can also be acquired through other means (e.g. through a solid advantage in the sub-$200 market)

just look at valve statistics and see what kind of money people are spending in their GPUs
posted by : samspqr, 11 January 2008

Is Pc gaming dying?

I know "Pc gaming is dying" has been said before but ....

I've been a PC gamer for about 3 decades now. Up till now, every Xmas, there was always a huge surge of titles as companies rushed to try to get their stuff out. A lot of times we didn't like it because they wound up ruining games by releasing them before they were ready, but still, there was a lot of stuff...

But not this Xmas. I've never seen a Xmas with such a paltry few releases. And looking ahead, it doesn't look any better... in fact, the PC release schedule looks frighteningly slim to me.

As an earlier poster already said, you can buy an XBox or a WII for the price of a top end graphics card these days. And, the consoles just work --- no defragging, updating antivirus or drivers, etc etc. And yes, the graphics are finally good enough (In fact, I felt the PS2 graphics were good enough.)

Finally, the whole DX10 and 10.1 fiasco must have seriously pissed off the early adopters... are you willing to shell out $500 for a 10.1 card, when dx 10.2 may pop up if they discover any suffciently fatal API flaws?

I really hope this doesn't come to pass but it's just not looking good...
posted by : Jamie, 11 January 2008

Just another $$$ scam

It is painfully obvious that multi-core is a better solution than multi-GPU. ATI / NVidia both know that. Other than trying to squeeze out more money from the consumers, there is no point to linger around the multi GPU idea.

I am getting sick of being fed these new cards that are just slight revisions of old technology. NVidia is stalling just because they can, and ATI is a generation behind. It isn't realistic but we need a 3rd company to step in and kick out some new GPU technology while ATI and NVidia's has their head are up their @$$.

2008 will be a boring GPU year if it is just going to be a multi GPU race. Woopty Freakin Do. New technology please...it was due yesterday.
posted by : Tim, 11 January 2008

Flipflops

? I agree with Jay above; how is one good and the other bad. You tech journos lauded the processor multicore trend and now poo-poo multi GPU's? What is it a case of "been there, done that?" You want something new? Make up your minds and stop whining about this "not being a real innovation."

Having said that, I believe it would have been better for the graphics makers to do EXACTLY like the CPU makers (albeit AMD makes both). The should have made dual-GPU chips and not simply put 2 chips on a board ala Intel (see the first dual core offerings and current quad core offerings.) I will say that this is a good start though.
posted by : Smegz, 11 January 2008

This is the way of the future....

While inelegant and problematic, the multi-core/die future is the way things must go due to die & package space limitations, so best to play around with those options more and more now with known quantities than trying to experiment with new architectures like the R700/G100 etc.
With the potential of the many core verse coming sooner than you think, the elegance will need to be found in the software side as well not only the hardware side because the hardware side is highting barriers of physics which are harder to surmount.
If AMD can apply ATi's old super-tiling solution more effectively they may end up with a more flexible solution than just variations on AFR and SFR. This may also help with the issue of copying the frame buffer to all memories involved, which is a small barrier with solutions that won't find themselves easily within the same package on the PCB with shared memory pathways.

While I personally don't like Xfire/SLi as solutions to a problem that is usually restricted to uber-resolutions / settings and e-Wangs, there are some unfortunate realities we are coming up against with our traditional 1 chip solutions, that need better answers that hopefully these Franken-SLi'n can initiate somehow.

In retrospect the biggest drawback of the old GX2 was it's apparent limited ability to give nVidia any insight into a great than 2 GPU future as demonstrated by their slow progress with the GF8800s. Hopefully these new X2 solutions offer more positives for both AMD and nVidia in perfecting their future products.

PS, Matrox Rulz!! >B~)
posted by : Knightshader, 12 January 2008

7950

Well my 7950Gx2 at the time and still to this day performs flawlessy with very high FPS. Bar Crysis no game has yet dropped it below 30fps.

In the days when 7900GTX's stuggled in Oblivion and the 7900GT's were being RMAed in their hundreds - the 7950Gx2 shone above the rest.
posted by : pt123, 14 January 2008

Not a good start

To Smegz...I think this is a horrible start. It is painfully unecessary to slap two GPUs on a board when the dual core technology is present. I agree with Tim...Red and Green are just buying time and ripping of consumers with old technology.
posted by : Dennis, 15 January 2008
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