Why DX10.1 matters to you
Like speed and beauty?
YOU KNOW THE graphics wars are heating up when the 'presentations' start to fly. The latest one is from NV talking about their upcoming 8800GT/256 which will be out soon, but it is the header that makes me think it is more than innocent advertising.
"Kevin Unangst, Senior Global Director for Microsoft Games for Windows: " DX10.1 is an incremental update that won’t affect any games or gamers in the near future." He is right, mostly because it won't be out until SP1 hits, so no argument there. More importantly, DX10 and onward is tied to the broken malware infestation known as Vista, so it is really irrelevant, but there is more to it than that.
Lets be honest, DX10.1 brings a lot of new features that don't really matter much if at all, and you can read all about them here. That said, there is one there that will matter a lot, contrary to what MS people say. This magic feature is the multi-sample buffer reads and writes(MSBRW). If you are wondering how you missed that big one in the feature list, well shame on you, read better next time.
What MSBRW does is quite simple, it gives shaders access to depth and info for all samples without having to resolve the whole pixel. Get it now? No? OK, we'll go into a bit more detail. DX10 forced you to compute a pixel for AA (or MSAA) to be functional, and this basically destroyed the underlying samples. The data was gone, and to be honest, there was no need for it to be kept around.
Games like Quake3 would do a lighting pass, then a shader pass, and another lighting followed by shaders and so on until everything was rendered right. This was quite precise but also quite slow. Dog slow.
To optimize around this, a technique called deferred shading took was invented. This does all the lighting passes followed by a single shader pass. If you have five passes, you basically can skip four trips through the shaders. The problem? Because the pixel isn't fully computed, just a pile of AA data, there is no way for it to be read. This is horribly simplified, but I don't want to go into the low level stuff here, go look it up if you really care.
What this meant is that you can't turn on AA if you have deferred rendering unless you do Supersampling which is rendering it at higher reolutions and sampling down. This is unusably slow, so it went out the door, meaning if you were designing a game, you picked speed in the form of deferred shading, or beauty in the form of AA. Most DX10 games will go for speed, meaning the AA hardware will sit more or less idle.
DX10.1 brings the ability to read those sub-samples to the party via MSBRW. To the end user, this means that once DX10.1 hits, you can click the AA button on your shiny new game and have it actually do something. This is hugely important.
The first reaction most people have is that if a game is written for DX10, then new 10.1 features won't do anything, AA awareness needs to be coded in the engine. That would be correct, but we are told it is quite patchable, IE you will probably see upgrades like the famous 'Chuck patch' for Oblivion. Nothing is guaranteed, but there is a very good chance that most engines will have an upgrade available.
In the end, DX10.1 is mostly fluff with an 800-pound gorilla hiding among the short cropped grass. MSBRW will enable AA and deferred shading, so you can have speed and beauty at the same time, not a bad trade-off.
Since NV has not done the usual 'we can do it too' song and dance when they are being beaten about the head and neck by a bullet point feature they don't have, you can be pretty sure they can't do it.
Close looks at the drivers, and more tellingly no PR trumpeting that they will have it out before the release of SP1 almost assuredly means that it will never happen. If you have a G8x or a G9x card, the only feature of DX10.1 you will miss is the important one. µ

Comments
Histroy repeats
Of course if Nvidia really can't do this then they will probably complain so much that it will be removed from the spec...Good article
Plus there's the double precision math, which is important because it would help on any platform to use the GPU as a general purpose math device.And many of the DX10(.1) compatible features can be used on XP too, just not via DX10(.1), presently.
Bit late on the warning
You could have told us this a month ago before everyone at least went out and tried to get there hands on a 88GT.And some of your sentences in that article dont make to much sense. Remember the basics of proof reading mate.
Still good to know that 10.1 wont be completely useless.
AA Performance
That's actually interesting. The 38XX card from AMD recieve the most criticism for lacking AA performance. Will this table turn once DX10.1 is in the wild?yawn...
"broken malware infestation known as Vista". Oh you bore me so incredibly. Go play with your dodo or do it better if you are so smart.DX 10.1 will take too long
Microsoft is in suuuch a hurry to get Vista SP1(+DX10.1) out, that it is very likely NVIDIA will already have a DX10.1 chip out once it finally does.Irony
Daniel is irony.Hubbub again
Well, it always goes like that. The one that implements certain new feature stresses its importance while non adopters try to deminish its significance. My personal observations are not in favour of ATI though. DX9 cards used to play DX8 games prety well while struggling in DX9, the same is valid for DX10 cards for the moment - they are great for DX9 and the top crop of them achieve the staggering 30fps in Crysis. So why someone would need AA in DX10(10.1) when can not get decent fps without it. The new ATI cards are slower than the NV cards from an year back. Their only advantage is their price, I don't want to play new games at QVGA with 4AA/8AF in DX10.1. Do you ?IRRELEVANT
Funny that when ATI has something exclusive, it's dead important... Sorry Charlie, but ATI lost the battle already.I know it feels bad because you hyped the 3800 series so much but the fact is that they're just so much slower than 8800GT that they're not worth the DX10.1. If there are any DX10.1 games out anytime soon, the Radeons aren't fast enough to run it.
So beat it, Nvidia won and G92 kicks ass.
Rush for Ati
Well I still have not decided what graph to buy, but if this is truth then Ati scores one more point in favor.article is outspoken but speaks truth
DX10.1 is a plus. Vista is a rough piece of software. Needs sp1 and then time to let that have the bugs worked out of it. Crossfired 3850 or 3870 will last long enough to be relevant when dx10.1 games are out. Future-proofing products is no bad thing. ATI's x1900 has lasted well, extra 24 pixel pipelines over the 7900gtx means it has a good go at todays games, like crysis, totally outclassing the gtx.AMD/ATI lost?
You say these things as if you have a stake in this "Battle of the Nerds". The truth is on any benchmarks I have seen the 3870 only was just short of the 8800GT for 60 dollars US less. That isn't exactly a crushing defeat. The unbiased view is actually that BOTH represent a good value and it is in NOBODIES interest for ANY of these companies to put the other out of business, otherwise we will be paying much more.Originally part of DX10?
It sounds to me like maybe this technique was intended to be in the original version of DX10, so ATI developed for it, but Microsoft dropped it from the final spec because Nvidia wasn't ready.This then left ATI in a bad position with R600 architecture aimed at an AA feature that didn't exist.
I think if Microsoft has a new, faster technique, it should be made available immediately. It's up to Nvidia whether or not they want to implement it in hardware.
Good for ATI
For the price the 38XX series are actually really good cards.If the AA thing is for real, then the 3870 will probably be competitive with the 8800GT in high image quality modes with a patch. Maybe.
Personally I think if you're a hardcore gamer AND/OR you have a 1920x1200 or higher screen get the 8800GT.
Otherwise the 38XX cards are a lot cheaper, give great 3d performance in the 1680x1050 and lower resolutions that most people are using, and you get better screen management and video decoding.
Pardon? Spit take?
Re: preinterpostDid I miss something? Did Vista lose its DRM scheme and improve gaming in Vista with DX10 from utterly unplayable to something playable? 50% performance decreases are nothing to yawn about.
N/A
By the time there are enough released/patched games that support this that it matters Nvidia will most likely be preparing the 9 series for launch.There is little point in making DX10.1 their main sales punch when nothing uses it, plus judging the benchmarks this new card would probably struggle to enable 4x AA in compatible games anyway. It won't of course deter them from making allot of noise about it, if the competition was mopping the floor with you in benchmarks what else can you do?
To Early to Tell
Two weeks ago i was going to buy a 88GT512 but decided to wait to see what DAAMIT had to offer, knowing that it probably wouldn't beat the G92 beast.From the benchmarks I've seen so far i think the 3870's real performance is yet to be seen. ALL the benchmarks so far are using beta drivers and the 3800's seems to get smashed in heavy AA/FF benchmarks. T
his might turn around with a DX10.1 patch (both in Vista and games) and proper drivers, on the other hand, it might not.
Then of course there's the matter of cost and supply, the average waiting time is Aus for a 88GT512 is 3 weeks (1 week if your willing to take the first 88GT512 that comes in) and at this rate the 88GT512's will be ATLEAST $100 more then a 3870 by the time you get your hands on one. (a G92 that is)
My biggest concern is having to use Vista to make the most of the latest games, SP1 or not.
Ugh
Enough of the 'Vista is malware' crap.Seriously, it makes you sound about 12 years old, like one of those people who substitute the 's' in Microsoft for a dollar symbol.
ding dongs
AA useless without the power needed to get decent framerates.. will you be playing @ 800x600 so that you can play with AA enabled?Nvidia fan boys
fan boys, please shut up. really.in saying that, i'm still looking at an 8800GT... *sits waiting for 1Gb of texture memory*
The Wii effect.
This is no time to be smug, the fate of DAAMIT could depend on the next few quarters.New Radeon 3800s have the advantages of price, more ecological (lower) power consumption and DX 10.1 (the gorilla in the fluff?). That combination should please OEMs who can sell it on all three points and that should please various non-obsessive type punters.
It is too early to discount the Wii effect, ie a cheaper part outselling higher spec rivals. It may do better than benchmarks alone would predict.
Me
Actually, if you use two 3870 cards in crossfire, that are out now or in a few days for most people, and have had a dx10.1 version of a game like, say crysis, nVidia would have lost?Price/Performance Ratio
The 3800 series is the clear winner in the Price/Performance Ratio. These cards are not designed to beat the 8800 series, they are way too cheap to even compare with the 8800.http://www.tgdaily.com/picturegalleries/20071115/fpsperdollar.jpg
I for one would rather get more bang for my buck than buck for my bang.
no way to port DX10 to XP?
I've read about DX10 only games being played on XP, but can DX10 be hacked to run on XP? Thats really the only piece of Vista which I find compelling.I know theres the HAL in XP and the wholly new system in Vista, so perhaps not without the source code?
Although it can always be ported by simply forcing MS through no sales of Vista. Something which I'm gonna stick with for as long as possible.
Sorry, but you fell for the ATI PR
I don't blame you though - the ATI white paper is very well written to make it look like all these fancy effects require DX 10.1, when if fact NONE of them do.DirectX 10.0 already allows pre-resolve access to multisampled buffers. All that 10.1 gets you is pre-resolve access to a multisampled depth buffer.
Doing MSAA with deferred shading does not require pre-AA-resolve access to the depth buffer. What is does require is pre-resolve access to the color, normal, etc buffers which is already provided by the DX10.0 Texture2DMS object.
Accessing a multisampled depth buffer pre-resolve basically just removes one of the exceptions in DX10.0, where you had pre-resolve access to everything but the depth buffer. This is why ATI says "A new feature of DirectX 10.1 allows all AA buffers to be accessed directly by shaders." - they make it sound like none of the buffers are accessable in DX 10.0, whereas in reality all but the depth buffer are accessable.
So, in conclusion, you can do MSAA with deferred shading in DX 10.1. This is not to say that you can't do it in DX 10.0.
Ati is an investment.
Since all ATi cards from elder series run much better new games than any elder nVidia card, ex: COD4 or Crisys, run better on a x800 or a x1950xt than on a 6800 or a 7950GT. I think all new Ati card will and have better drivers development than the nvidia counterpart.So Ati promesses more for the future than any NV card at the moment, and I may say , as usual.
So Ati came up with a mid-class GFX which is future proof, and really cheap. Client satisfied =)
Hahah!
Leave it to the Inq to deliver completely half-assed, one sided, illiterate reporting! It's too bad Google includes this garbage in their search results.Nvidia Fanboys
Don't you just love all the Nvidia fanboys flaming your article. They are one of the big reason I even went with ATI. I can't stand their attitude. I also agree with this article, directx10.1 HAS to have something important in it, otherwise Microsoft would not be requiring it as a hardware option (I believe in the past all minor updates never required it in the hardware)Stupid People
I use an ATI 3870 Atomic edtion by Sapphire, and it kicks that 8800 ass. ALot of people cant get performance out of there rigs, because they assum shit works outta the box. But the 8800's look like shit compared to an ATI rendered game. Especially on a 3800series graphics card. You Nvidia fan boys need to pull your thumbs outta your butts and ask nvida for a price break for trading in your obsolete 8800's, or bite the bullet and go AMD/ATi...but if your too stupid and find your ass, and dont know what a thumb is, Intel/Nvidia is the choice for you :)
PLENTY of people that understand how to install drivers and make a clean running install, do not have problems with vista, Just the ones we know about that are being addressed on the 18th of this month.
Vista is the ONLY DX10 resourse to use, so dont make people that are ignorant think its broken. I know quite a few "IT" Techies that "Know" what they are talking about, because some other misguided IT techie thought THEY knew something, and became a teacher and taught it to them. I help myself with troubleshooting a problem, i suggest we incourage people to do that same, and limit the amount of "Instability Issues" people post about on forums
ATi are Inovators, nVidia are copycats
ATi is the only GPU manufactuer which supports DX10.1 and SM 4.1, and to show how nVidia fanboys are such bad losers is the following:-there was a patch which added DX 10.1 to Assasin's Creed, but the patch was withdrew because too many people had nVidia cards which made the developer remove the patch, which is not fair on people willing to go for technological advances instead of a cheap ass company like nVidia, and im no fanboy since i have owned both 8800GTX and HD4870 and i noticed better image quality with the ATi Card, plus the drivers were much better to install and use compared to nVidia
and with the new ATi HD4870X2, ATi has rightfully taken back its Crown as King of GFX cards