Leo pard

you spent all this time on this article flaming apple on osx. Well the thing is what about vista and the fact it is fubar. Personally any os will have some launching pains. The difference? Apple is going to fix the problems and move on. As for running OSX on a of this is great. Atleast my 6,000 desktop won't crash or as much atleast with osx. The ol' vole asks for 500 bones for ultimate = KRAP!
Apple asks $130 and u have a good os with some tweeking needed. I think what is really needed is a value comparison between the vole and my favorite fruit. I think is quickly becoming clear apple is starting to pop it into overdrive.

Typical...

...MACUSER....Always defending their highly expensive product. Sure Windows has its faults and no one tries to defend that fact...The difference between a PC user and MAC user? PC users admit things are not perfect but are willing to find a solution - MAC user - See nothing. Hear Nothing. Speak LOUD.

Leopard

Where do you get off on flaming the author for ripping into apple for a change, im sick and tired of hearing how OSX is all mighty and bug free and free of all sorts of security problems

The truth is Microsoft does a hell of a job just making sure the damn thing runs on the thousands of combinations out there, yet apple cant even make it work on there own hardware says alot doesnt it ?

Rebuttal to Apple Fanatic

You can bitch and moan about Vista all you want, but even the scoundrels at Microsoft had the basic sense to make sure their OS provides networking speeds superior to dial-up.

A bit of a no-brainer, that... stop trying to deflect the issue at the Microsoft scapegoat, Apple-fan.

Vista=1, Tiger=0

Deadlines

Vista has been put off for months because M$ execs know that crappy reviews would doom their OS. Apple straight out uses their user as betatesters when they buy commercial software. Since they're not a big market, Apple REALLY doesn't care about them. (Apple says otherwise but actions speak louder than words there)

I think most admins would quit their jobs if he/she was ordered to switch to Macs as a standard platform for a company (Not to mention macs don't have PXE anyways). At least Microsoft hints at waiting for Windows Server 2008/VS2008 before upgrading to Vista.

However, Apple is a platform company and not a software company so you can't really blame them for crappy software.

Vista

Vista gets flamed here all the time. Now it's Leopards turn. It's equal opportunity flaming.

Plus when you hear 'it just works' all the time when talking about OSX, any fault is gonna get jumped on big time.

Quick!

To the bunkers my friends... The apple has been bitten and the fan-boy's are are already firing up their MySpace accounts to offer witty retort.

This new brand appears to to come without the ability to read other articles... Is it perhaps that their shiny new OS actually just doesn't let them click on links, save to defend His Holyness?

I recon what's happened here is that apple is confused by the whole "upgrade" market... You don't upgrade Apple products, silly unwashed masses, you can keep them as hip artwork for the kids, or throw them into the pile with the rest of the dangerous plastics. But Upgrade? How are apple going to milk you for cash if you do that!

Congratulations on getting a line through the Inq's name again on the Apple Christmas Card list... No free Iphones for you.

needs fixing out of the box...

Try linux if you don't mind an Os that might not work 100% as is. And it's free.

loser, is you

@Barret
You are the biggest loser I've had the, quite unfortunate, chance to happen upon today. So I'm going to hit you, pop tart.

First, if you are a robot then I forgive you and disregard the following.

If you are a person then you'd know that practically 1 out of every three Inq articles bash MS and or Vista. They've been hitting MS in the face left and right every damn day for, uhm, ever.

As a matter of fact, they've been quite cheery with Apple as of late, and although I OWN 3 MACS, 1 iPOD, AND NOTHING RUNS WINDOWS... I'm not too happy with the shiny, happy Apple forkers myself. Your favorite fruit is getting a bit greedy mate. So, PISS OFF.

I like OS X, but the zealots that this company creates makes me want to smash apples and burn the hair off of anyone wearing white earbuds. I do not recommend OS X to anyone as a matter of principle, in order to prevent appearing in any way, a breed of your sort. (I also use Sony earbuds, which are black.)

I'm seriously pissed. What the hell is wrong with these people?

It is because of fruits like Barret that Apple may go down in history as the first company ever to be ruined by 'word of mouth support.'

DAMN MORONS, STOP DEFENDING CORPORATE GREED YOU BUGGERS!

If you truly like Apple then shut the hell up. If you are working for MS then cheers, your doing a bang-up job.

Fkey-APPLE, Fkey-MS, and Fkey-YOU

there.

On a side note:
This article has no content. It isn't surprising that there are some bugs with Leopard. Please focus on how Apple is handling these problems (i.e. are they deleting customer complaints as before, or are they doing something about it.)

you know what,
Fkey-INQ too.

everybody sucks, today.

Who buys ultimate?

Why anyone would want Ultimate I'm not really , but premium is only $110 on new egg and basic is just $85. (upgrades) vista works, its just the drivers are kind messed up, but try getting drivers for osx. Ha. Thats why no one can really use it on a pc. Anyone vista is a slight improvement if you can run it. Though there is no compelling reason to upgrade to it like panther.
Side note: Spaces? Linux has had that stuff for years!
Long live linux. Have you tried beryl or compiz lately? very nice gui effects

Leopard: The cat without claws

Barrett, I'm sure companies like Microsoft and Apple are estatic that you are more than willing to spend money to buy a defective product. Myself, I am angered that companies large and small will ship product with known defects to customers, expecting their customers to uncover the bugs. Granted, bug chasing is expensive, particularly for the more subtle ones, but that is not the point here. My anger is directed towards companies that are all too willing to ship product with glaring, obvious problems. Since when is it proper to ship a proclaimed upgrade that can't even do what the previous version could? Is that progress? Hell, no! It's greed on the part of the companies, and stupidity on the part of customers that would accept such a crappy attitude.

I'm sure Steve-O is happily counting your $130 while thinking to himself what another P.T. Barnum said long ago, "There's a sucker born every minute."

How can you have a value comparison when neither product (Vista and Leopard) bring any value to the table? That would be trying to determine which product sucks dead dogs less.

(Wonders how Gates, Ballmer and Jobs would act if their suppliers, both corporate and personal, gave the same level of crappy output as their companies? Probably whine a lot, for starters.)

@ Barrett: Leo pard

As for bashing any OS, I really don't care. But when an individual as defiant as yourself comes on and puts the "apple on a pedestal" I have to laugh. I work in a business where computer performance and reliability is key. Now to the point, of 2,500 computers we had a "test group" of 20 users who said that they would use a Mac, so of course, they each got one. Now did we gain productivity, speed, or reliability from this test group? In our situation no, why? Because our production environment is geared to run on 32-bit windows. So now we have a few ambitious employees that’s are stuck with an ugly, non-productive POS, now we just can go buy new PC's and throw the crApples out the window (like we wished). We (in IT) were instructed to "make it work" how? parallels... essentially a waste of resources and money to accomplish the same thing a different way.

Conclusion:
1) There is no business advantage to converting to an apple based OS.
2) With the price difference we can spec out a PC with current or almost next-gen hardware for the same price as a last-gen Mac.
3) A learning curve? Ever heard of that? Per user over the course of several years, could cost as much as the machine itself.
4) Now no more talk about Mac, we know as bad as it is to have a crapTastic OS, its called asta.laVista.
5) When you can come up with a cost effective plan for osX to take over the business market... let me know.
6) I lied I do like to bash hobby based products, (crApples).
7) I love Linux, which don’t get me wrong is an ENTHUSIAST product, not a hobby.
8) Thanks crApples for the conversation topic. I have real work to do now other than waste my lunch hour.
9) If you found this BS post offensive, consider yourself Emo.
10) If you were offended and considered Conclusion #9) a compliment, the English language has no words derogatory enough to define yourself.

Yeah, Leopard, what a deal

$130 for an apparently buggy OS which is a glorified service pack and only really adds Time Machine and Spaces--both of questionable usefulness to people who are clever enough to not delete their precious files, keep regular backups, and don't mind having IM windows and Photoshop on the screen at the same time. Yeah, that's such an amazing deal, I don't see why anybody would buy Vista for $500 from an evil company like Microsoft.

Oh wait.

Apple's $130 OS is an upgrade. With the exception of hardware hacks of questionable legality and stability, you can only install Leopard on a Mac, i.e. on something which you already have OS X on. Compare it to upgrade pricing for Vista, then: $145 on Newegg or $160 at Best Buy will get you the retail Vista Home Premium upgrade, which in all practicality is all that you should really need (if you want to spend another $100 on the $250 Ultimate Edition upgrade, then fine, but don't act like it's $500 and mandatory to get the full value out of Vista). So really, upgrading an XP machine to Vista or a Tiger machine to Leopard cost $145 and $130 respectively, which is honestly not that big of a difference.

But! The difference is still that Microsoft is an eeeeevil company trying to control your computer, whereas Apple is all about giving control to the user while still making it fun and easy to use, right? Right? The fact that you hand over your consumer right to vote on what sort of hardware you want (single/dual/quad core CPUs, integrated/add-in/multiple GPU solutions, tablet or Toughbook or media center systems, etc) and are absolutely and indefinitely tied to whatever hardware Apple approves of and wants to sell to you, that's not evil at all, that's not restricting you in any way. CLEARLY, Microsoft is trying to milk you for all the money it can while locking you into its products, while Apple isn't, am I right?

Absolutely amazing. Vista debuts as a major OS change and it has a very poor reception because it's too buggy. Leopard sells millions of copies instantly with critical reception, and its bugs and quirks are largely ignored, censored, or grudgingly written off as temporary rough spots which need a little polishing. Similar shortcomings and prices, but Vista is supposedly a monumental failure and Leopard is a stunning success. Oh, double standards, such a sad part of life.

MS Shills

Barrett, you're right, The Inquirer and its staff are obviously shills for MS and Vista. You've caught them! Not to finally expose them for what they really are!

Spotty bugs leopard

I don't know why everyone is like "my OS is better than yours" nonsense.

Keep in mind both M$ and Apple are companies that want to make money.
What would any other compnay do with some buggy beta? sell it & spend a bit of profit to fix the retail version with later patches. It happens with games, applications & operating systems.

Apple? Microsoft? whats the different?

Just look how apple is fighting to shove thier annoying iTunes program on us.

Kinda reminds me of Internet Explorer.

PAY for Vista?? PAY for Leopard??
You must be kidding me, if I cannot test it before I buy it there is no way I'm ever CONSIDERING paying for it.

This is so funny, I have not even bothered to pirate Vista or Leopard for FREE. Thats how highly I think of them.

Did you (whoever you are) PAY good money, earned by your own sweat for Vista?? for Leopard??

Sorry chum, you're a sucker & marketing teams love you for it.

Uhm...

Barrett, I'll just assume this is your first visit to this site, because the ratio of Vista bashing to Leopard bashing articles on the inq is a lot like the ratio of pennies in a dollar

lulz

I laugh because suddenly all the apple whorshippers suddenly got crabs from their new beastial partner. Infection is bound to happen when you continue to pursue risky behavior out of sheer hubris. Continuing to rub your supposed "superiority" in other users faces will only have certain undesirable consequences (as if unexplainable urges to scratch their crotches were not enough) when it turns out they actually arent any better.

Pointing out that everyone else also has these problems only strengthens their own position that no one can escape bugs, even if they like to pretend that their personal choices are better than those of others.

Join the rest of us you hairless monkeys.

I agree

I agree with Adil, every os has bugs, and it seems Leopard has even more than a 1000!!!!

Entrapment

Yes, I agree with the opinions posted stating that mindless devotion to a defective product is unreasonable, especially from a professional standpoint. This amounts to entrapment: you have invested money (and time, and training) into working with a product, and then tend to acquire tunnel vision and justify your investment to the exclusion of all else. And, there is the motivation and job security issue. Most system admins, for example, are MCSE's; they will typically resist moving to a non-Microsoft solution due to the comfort level they have working with MS software (and also due to the force of inertia, and also for perceived job-security reasons).

Ultimately, this results in cost-saving and security-enhancing opportunities (such as enterprise Linux) not being recommended or explored. The danger with this is that this can easily backfire when someone on the board of directors tallies up the IT costs over several years with respect to open source solutions. Computers are replaceable, software is replaceable, and so are IT personnel (and those who justify higher-cost alternatives because they do not know how to work with lower-cost alternatives could easily find themselves replaced with someone who is already *all trained up* on open source). All companies want to save money and increase security, and many would pay to upgrade IT certifications to encompass open source, even in order to explore cost-reduction and security-enhancing opportunities.

Two companies which have excellent training programs and very good track records with enterprise Linux are Redhat and Novell:

For enterprise:
http://www.novell.com/
http://www.redhat.com/rhel/

Free download versions:
http://fedoraproject.org/
http://www.opensuse.org/

Novell, for example, charges $50 per per year per fully-configured desktop including a full common operating environment of productivity software, including full support, and has similarly-reasonable support pricing for servers.

IMHO, it is better to be safe than sorry as a system administrator who wants to develop their career path.

two days and counting

nothing so far worth complaining about except no option for a more utilitarian menu with dock icons (stacks are ok, but....)
nothing so far worth praising too much, multiple work spaces are nice.
finder windows style themselves a bit differently on a per window basis than in the past, generally taking the format of the window before them instead of maintaining the last setting (maybe i'm missing something)
norton anti-virus would not auto-update until i downloaded an easy to locate patch on their website, available here:
http://service1.symantec.com/Support/num.nsf/docid/2007102922255911?Open&src=hot&docid=2007102700270911&nsf=num.nsf&view=docid&seg=hho&lg=en&ct=us
no problems with wireless on this system so far
performance is no different either way in any noticeable form (which is good)
does what it's supposed to do, which is get out of the way and facilitate exactly what i ask. ;) where else do u find that?

vista it just works lol

everyone is so quick to judge vista, where is the truth is, your shiney white overpriced PC's running OSX are barely powerfull enough to play tetris, except the CPU , all the other stuff in ur mac, is years old, a x300 GFX card, a 5400rpm hard drive and 533nhz ram, OSX is basic to say the least,

cmon girls

stop sissying about now... wait a few weeks and then judge the cat... it's probably only getting warmed up

get real

If Vista is so great how come microsoft owns 50% of the stock in apple. Seems odd to me when apple doesn't own very much of any of microsoft's stock. Lets face it people mac os x may not be perfect but it is an OS based on unix closer to open source than windows obviously is so any bugs that are found will be fixed quicker because of contribution of code from linux and unix users. Microsoft has always been about the money and always will they could make a extremely solid OS but they won't because they will lose money in support and time it would cost them from releasing it faster. There is pros and cons of both sides really, however I can honestly say after all is said and done with the change to x86 for mac os x it is better than windows.I have used both windows and mac os x for the last 15 years and up until the recent change to x86 windows was better hands down,unfortunately things change.I still use both but mac os x in the larger picture of things has less problems for me then vista. This is only my opinion on things both are good Operating systems I just prefer mac os x and anything open source to that of Windows, I feel anything that we the users can contribute as a group to open source will always be better than what a few from microsoft will come up with, and you can't argue with the math in that.

Eat your Vegetables!!

Seing that Mrs. Farrell is a bigger wanker than even Anus Torvalds, this sad piece really can't come as a surprise..

MS Whiners are so sad, sitting there, locked in their mom's basement..

Yes, Leopard is half baked, but it's YOUR OS, where as Vista is 0wned by MPAA's DRM department..

Farrell, you are a Winker, a Tosspot.
You are a Very Tiny piece of TURD!

Thank You!

Works for me

I have 3 Macs -- one PPC, two Intel. Leopard works fine on all of them -- Wifi is as good as it ever was under Tiger.

Yowza!

Defending the Apple OS by crapping on its neighbor yard? That's when you know they are desperate mate!

Fix is already out

Actually, the fix came out on October 27 [http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/10/27/apple.updates.leopard/]. The problem is how to make the fix *work* hasn't been well communicated.

This is what worked for me:

1. Make sure the update is installed.
2. Delete all wireless keychain entries.
3. Reboot into Safe Boot mode (hold down Shift while your Mac is restarting).
4. Once Safe Boot is complete, simply log in and Restart again to return to normal mode.

Fantastic OS

As usual, the PC lovers cannot see past the end of their noses. Brought up on Windows and don't know any better - or could it be that PC users realise they have made a bad choice and hate to admit it?
I sold PC's for over 12 years before going over to Apple and sorry guys but like it or not Windows is horrible compared to OSX.
Want an example? In OSX I can click on a picture, a Word file, a sound file and an application then click open to get all at once. Windows... click two Word file, select open and only one opens(?). If this an example of a superior OS then give me an abacus.
OK, I freely admit OSX is not perfect and does crash occassionaly (always with non Apple programs) but blue screen of death... what's that?
Personaly, I want an OS that helps me get things done rather than frustrate me at every turn.
I use PC's at work. Would I change my home machine/OS from Apple to Wintel? Nooooo way!

Pleeeeaaaasse

I hated mac for years, something that worsened when I moved to San Francisco to find that you were looked at like your retarded if you didn't use a mac.

But over the years i've converted, and all I use now are mac (though they're still over priced). I'm the post production manager AND the IT guy at my company and so I run 2 networks, 1 Apple for the Video and design team, an Ms based domain for all the PC's. I am really hoping the Leopard server get's to the point to where I can replace the contacts and calendering of Exchange with it. I love how far OS X has come.

BUT, the fact that Leopard has this many bugs is retarded. The fact that Final Cut Studio 2 was written on Leopard Beta's and yet has some MAJOR issues running on the leopard release F#@KING confounds me. Worse off they didn't announce to the channel that there were problems, and I had to we warned off by friends who work at apple. And what I hear is that there not fix for the FCP Studio 2 problems till at least the end of December. It's Sloppy, just Sloppy.

Blind Fan boys

"Barrett" is a blind fan boy - but us Mac users & aficionado's aren't all like that.
I am a Mac user too and have done a fair amount of cursing in the last day or so due to Leopard bugs. Apple needs to pull it's finger out and fix these issues.

Apple made the wrong decision shipping with Leopard in it's current state. Somewhere in Cappuccino, some QA Manager was pressured into signing off on Leopard knowing full well it was going to cause pain. Well, that spineless git should get a swift kick in the spuds.

You may call me a fan boy too - but these issues can be correctly fairly swiftly. Leopard has enormous potential - I am keeping my eye on that right now since I have no choice. I will measure Apple by it's actions in the next month - to correct this screw-up.

wassup?

Does Apple sell crap with screwed defaults at special prices to European markets? I bought a standard Leopard 10.5, took it home, installed, and didn't fiddle with anything. I read Heise's freakout on the firewall, checked mine & couldn't find any of those ports open. My iBook Airport connxn runs faster since 10.5.

Sure I've got problems I never saw before, like the IdleTimer on PPP is stuck, won't adjust; some of my third party apps aren't ready yet; but no show stoppers. Maybe I'm too clever: I was ready with a partitioned disk, I can dual boot 10.4-10.5 with a shared Home directory.

Bugs the size of a car

I run a G5 2.0 GHZ with 2 gig of ram and I installed that disaster called Leopard 10.5, 30% of my importants applications did not work anymore, my machine slowed down to a crawl, my browser was just simply way too slow, I had to reformat and go back to Tiger now my Mac runs like a speeding train. Now I agree with some people this is much better than Vista will ever be in the PC world, but wait maybe 6 months before going to Leopard and let them release patches to fix it. But lets not forget that it is more stable than anything MS will ever release. And this is a Unix based OS, it should be free to upgrade.