Nvidia slides reveal supreme mastery of PR spinning
Graphzilla's word bending coup
NVIDIA PULLED ANOTHER PR coup at its editors day recently, showing what a cuddly happy group it really is. People were so bursting with joy that they had to share the info, so here it is.
Let's start out by saying that Nvidia pulled in the G92 launch day about two weeks and in doing so, compressed the time people had with parts before the Oct 29 launch date. Because of this, it's said to have invited only sites that had two people working on graphics to the event, so one could be bored to tears by the marketing slides while the other ran the benchmarks.
Having sat through these presentations before, all I can say is that two thirds of the way through, if you are not paying attention to what is being said, you are simply wondering if biting your tongue off or licking the PSU would be the least painful way to end it all.
The G92 deck is 25 slides long, and it is entitled GeForce Update October 2007. It is pretty dull even without a droning voice on the other side of the phone. What is even more amazing is that it was economical with the facts in several places, I wonder which site is going to parrot that stuff back. Here are the slides, by number, in play-by-play format.
1) The title page, as we said earlier, it is entitled GeForce Update October 2007. The big green watermark across it says "NVIDIA Confidential Embargo day is Oct 29 9PM". It is famous for changing the embargos at the last minute to prove people wrong, or just to play games, so take this a bit tenuously.
2) This slide is called "Agenda", after all, it is never without one. There are four bullet points, they are "Getting Ready for the Holiday Season", " Introduction to 8800GT", "SLI", and "Purevideo HD". Each is a section of the presentation.
3) This one claims "17 New and Released DX10 Games for 2007 Are You Ready?", and shows boxes for Fury, A Russian PT boat game, FPS creator, Universe at War, Hellgate London, Crysis, World in Conflict, Lost Planet, Eve, Gears of War, LOTR Online, UT III, Flight Simulator X, Assasin's Creed, Bioshock, Company of Heroes and the Opposing Fronts expansion.
This should be a list of games, all sponsored by Nvidia, that you should take the benchmarks for very lightly. Nvidia doesn't play fair, so when it owns a game, expect it to not be a fair benchmark.
4) "The Way It's Meant to Be Played Program" is the next one, and they talk about the programme itself, but don't mention any of the under stuff behind the Wizard's Curtain that you don't see. They put it into five categories, Consultation/Advice, Content Creation, Debug/Optimization, Feedback/Alpha test, Beta test/Enhancements. It sounds quite lovely.
5) This one is called "Next Gen Gaming Effects (NGGE): Depth of Field". It is featured in Lost Planet, COD4, Crysis, Hellgate: London and Huxley. There is a blurry mech pic with 'Enables in-game "focus" effects, giving sharper focus to objects at certain distances. Be still my beating heart.
6) "NGGE: Volumetric smoke and fog", as seen in COD4, CoH:OF and Hellgate. There is a guy with a flamethrower scorching things, cute little demon things. Awww.
7) "NGGE: Soft Particles" as seen in Bioshock (DRM and all), COD4, CoH:OF, Crysis, Hellgate, Huxley, Lost Planet, and World in conflict. I prefer my particles hard. There is a Bioshock screen grab.
8) "NGGE: Motion Blur" as seen in Crysis, COD4, CoH:OF, Hellgate and Lost Planet. This one has a blurry Crysis shot. Looks like Nvidia caught up with 3Dfx the better part of a decade later.
9) "NGGE: High Dynamic Range (HDR) lighting with 16x full-screen Anti-aliasing". This one can be seen in World in Conflict, COD4, Crysis and lost planet. The World in Conflict screen shot here is the first one that doesn't look completely awful.
As a side note on slides 5-9, all the wonderful next gen effects it is showing, with the exception of HDR, look like crap. Really, if this is the best the 'next-gen' graphics can do, you are almost better off getting a copy of Rogue and playing it on a CGA monitor. Whoever picked these shots needs a good working over with a large Cod or other North Atlantic fish.
10) We finally get to the parts, and it is called " Introducing the GeForce 8800GT The New Standard In Price/Performance". It will hold that title for all of two weeks, but more on that later. The bullet points are Best in class performance for this holiday's hottest games, single slot thermal solution, DirectX 10, PCI Express 2.0, Dual Link HDCP and Pure Video HD. All but the first are dead on, but the first is only true until the RV670 launches. Then things change a lot, and the downhill slide starts. Watch what happens in Q1, there won't be many more best in class slides.
11) This one is a table called GeForce 8800GT, and it says Embargo: Oct 29th as well. There is a 10 * 2 table, and it lists: Stream Processors - 112, Core Clock - 600+ MHz (Defined by board partners, GeForce 8800GT can run on a broad range of clock speed start of 600MHz core and 900MHz memory.) Shader Clock - 1500+ MHz (Defined by board partners, 2.5x or more than core clock.), Memory Clock - ~900+ MHz (same caveat as Core Clock), Memory - 512MB GDDR3, Power Connector - 6-pin, Length - 9 inches, Board Power - 110W, Thermal - Single Slot Fansink (NVIDIA reference design. Some board partners may do dual slots cooling solutions.), Outputs - 2x DL-DVI HDTV-Out. There is nothing here that we haven't told you in the past, but it is nice to see NV confirming our specs.
12) This one is going to be a little tough to talk you through, is is the GeForce 8800GT vs. Radeon HD 2900 XT. It is at 16x12, 4xAA and 16x AF. They picked this because of the AA bug in ATI parts makes NV seem disproportionately good, had it put a range of rezes and AA/AF modes in, you wouldn't have seen anywhere near the disparity.
That said, the 8800GT wins by between 20 and 100 per cent in 10 games, from Far Cry to HL2 to World in Conflict. It is a strange mix of titles, and it strongly looks like it cherry-picked winners at the most unfavorable settings for ATI.
In any case, it was run on a 'quad core 3GHz CPU', 2GB or RAM, WinVista (Aka MeII), and used Cat 7.10 drivers. No word if it used better Nvidia drivers than usual, the slide doesn't list what version it used.
13) This one is a header for the SLI section, and has a poxy looking kid in headphones staring at an SLI logo.
14) "Release 163.69 Brings Vista Performance to the Same Level as XP Performance", and to back up the claim, they have a graph titled " WinXP vs. WinVista SLI Performance". The graphs show that two of the games have MeII ahead, two have XP ahead, and in general, at 25*16 Rez with 4x/16x settings, you will probably get a slide show. The point is that the drivers now suck less than they used to, or that is the claim.
15) "Next generation games have arrived, Our driver supported SLI at each game's launch!". "1.5x single GPU performance". They list the scaling of the games with SLI, Bioshock - 1.4x, CoH -1.5x, World in Conflict - 1.25x, Lost Planet 1.8x, Quake Wars 1.7x, and Call of Juarez 1.5x.
Call me overly skeptical, but wasn't the recent SLI screed something around 2x, not 1.525x average? See slide 14 for more brainwashing.
16) This is the slide for video, with "Essential for the Ultimate HD Move Experience on a PC". It has the Purevideo HD, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD logos on it.
17) "Drive Prices Are Coming Down", and it lists the BenQ BR1000 Blu-Ray at $199 and the MS External USB HD DVD at $179. No mention of crushing DRM or how the IT industry sold you out to pacify Hollywood. Bad Nvidia, no cookie.
18) "Revolutionary New Video Processor Architecture", aka something ATI has had for six months. The bottom says "VP architecture offloads 100% of the CABAC and H.264 video decoding from CPU to provide "full spec" playback of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD movies".
There are two boxes, one has 3D Engine (Shaders), Display Processor and VP1, and it is the GeForce 7 Series GPU. The Geforce 8800GT has VP2 instead of VP1 and BSP engine and AES128 engine added on.
19) The one is called "The Benefit - Unprecedented Performance", and it has a chart comparing the 7900GT to the 8800GT and a Core 2 Number Numeral E6400 thrown in for good measure. Decoding HD content, the 8800GT hovers around 20 per cent CPU use, the 7900GT in the low 60s for 3 of the 4, and the E6400 at 80-90%. The graph itself it titled "H.264 Decode: Core 2 Duo E6400 vs. GeForce 7900GT vs. GeForce 8800GT". Note the H.264 very carefully. The bottom has "Lower CPU utilization provides reduced power consumption, and less system noise."
I am going to call bullshit on slides 18 and 19. Nvidia is trying to make it sound like its video decoding works, but it doesn't. It is being really careful to omit VC1, the protocol that the overwhelming majority of HD disks use right now. It also clearly omits any reference to ATI parts in this section so far, but it has them because it uses them earlier and later.
Basically, the reason here is that it can't do the critical step in the decode under VC1. It can do it under H.264 and AVC, but not the one that anyone cares about. Because of this, the HD decode of 8-series NV parts is absolutely horrible if you are using VC1, and most disks do.
NV picked the codecs and disks that don't use VC1 in a cynical attempt to pretend their decode isn't absolute crap. It is. ATI has the full decode in hardware, and the results show it. NV doesn't have it so it has to dodge the question and hope site owners are too dumb to test things. Sadly, it will probably snow most reviewers on this one.
Basically, look at the chart above, and look at the things NV uses to compare. It doesn't compare 8800GT to a GTX, GTS or 8600, no, they use a 7900. Curious, eh? No ATI comparison, or even a mention of VC1 codecs even thought it has the majority of titles on the market.
I wonder what Nvidia is afraid of? A masterful job of selectively quoting the truth there guys, you should be in politics or WMD hunting.
20) This one is called "GeForce 8800GT Feature Full-Screen Blu-Ray and HD DVD playback over Dual-Link HDCP at 2560 x 1600". It shows a screen with "Radeon 2900 XT Blu-Ray & HD DVD NOT (underlined) Possible @ 2560x1600" and another screen with GeForce 8800GT Blu-ray & HD DVD Playback @ 2560x1600".
This slide is just not true. Please note, I am not calling it a mistake, it has the cards, it tested the cards, it avoided tests that show its cards in a bad light. A 30 second test would show that this is a complete fabrication, and it has to know that it is. How do I know? Here is a screen shot of my 2900XT playing Serenity off HD-DVD at 2560x1600.
The above mess is my desk and testing rig. The middle monitor is a Dell 3007, one of the worst monitors on the face of the planet, avoid it at all costs. That said, the rig on the far right is an Intel QX6800, Badaxe2 mobo, 2x 2900XTs with Catalyst 7.10 drivers, a WD 150G Raptor and 2G of Corsair Dominator memory. It also has a generic DVD, a really nice OCZ/PC Power & Cooling 750 EPS12V Crossfire PSU and an XBox 360 HD-DVD player. The software is Cyberlink PowerDVD Ultra patched to the latest. As a pat on the back to all of the above vendors, I use them every day and can't say enough good things about these parts, Dell being the exception, avoid it.
That said, the Serenity HD-DVD plays at full 2560 * 1600 rez, Nvidia is not being fair when it says it can't be done. The two boxes are the task monitor and desktop settings just for your information. It plays just fine in full screen mode as well. If you are curious as to the settings, they look like this. Full resolution versions of the pics are available if you want them, just write me.
So there you go, NV had a reviewers day and snowed a room full of editors. Slide 20 says unequivocably that ATI can't do it, and that is not true.
21) Entitled "GeForce Summary" with two main bullet points, "Incredible Momentum" and "New GeForce 8800GT delivers unmatched price/performance for the holiday season". The first has "Games Leadership", " SLI" and "PureVideo HD" as sub-points, but don't let it confuse you, both are wrong.
As we have pointed out, the RV670 will be out and will match it for price performance, and according to all the leaked numbers I have seen, beat it on most counts. The first point will become clearer when sales numbers for Q4 and Q1 come out, the tide has shifted, and Nvidia is getting blown out of the water in the OEM space. Let the numbers come out and you will see how incredible its momentum is. If you want a real laugh, try and find a Montevina notebook with an Nvidian GPU.
22) "The Position of GeForce 8800GT" is the next one, and it goes into retail price in the first bullet. I have to redact this because I don't want to tip NV off to who showed me the slides, but it is a mid-ranged card priced as such. The second bullet is titled "Suggest use similar price range products in review", and has three subs, "NVIDIA 8800 GTS 320MB", "ATI HD 2900XT (ATI no real product at this price range right now)", and "RV670 (after launch)". Yawn.
23) Moving on, It has "Suggested review items", and list four. "3dmark 06" is the obvious choice, "All DirectX 10 games" with sub heads "PT Boats, Company of Heroes, Crysis, Hellgate, Lost Planet, World in Conflict, Bioshock, Call of Juarez*....", "New games released in this year" listing 10 more, and " Antialiasing (AA) and Anisotropic Filtering (AF) is needed for games in this segment" with a sub of "Always set AA to 4x and AF to 16x in games review".
The first one is fair, and the second and third are pretty fair, but neglecting DX9 which the majority, 98% or so according to the latest Steam survey, have is pretty stupid. The last one is pretty sleazy, AA is a known 2900 problem. It is not unfair to ask that it be tested, but the 'always' is pretty low on NV's part. I would suggest that you try it with AA and AF on and off, in all combinations, to test one company's strength against another's weakness exclusively is pretty one sided, don't you think?
The last bit is the footnote based on the Call of Juarez asterisk. In red, NV says "Note: Call of Juarez benchmark demo has tricks to reduce NVIDIA card's score. Must use real game on testing." I won't dignify that with a response.
24) "Overclocking" is the title here, and it simply says " The overclocking ability of GeForce 8800GT is related to the board clock settings and cooling solutions. We suggest media do the overclocking testing for boards those clock setting relatively lower." In the Queen's English, this means you will get better results if you try and overclock a board that isn't pre-overclocked. Well duh.
25) This one has no title, just a bullet point. It says " for more information please refer to GeForce 8800GT reviewer's guide." I don't have one, or any 8800 card of any kind, so I won't.
In the end, this slide deck is unfair. Nvidia seems to pull every sleazy cherry pick and bending of English possible and hope no one will notice. Slide 20 stands out as the supreme example of this. µ
Comments
Charlie hath Balls
Yep ... gutsy article.Den't get him started on gaming laptops either ...
Nice to see someone pointing out the warts on Nvidia's cards too.
Anything wrong with the image quality?
Ghosting?
Might be worth a quick check too.
News or Forum Rant?
Wow. One of the most biased articles i've ever seen. Let me guess you like ATI/AMD??Don't be shy Charlie!
So what I think you are saying is that you're calling "shenanigans" on nVidia's PR slide deck?You didn't comer right out and say so though did you? (snicker)
Great article Charlie.
Do not complain...
I think you are complaining too much.After all, you are one of the editors who are cherry picked by NVIDIA.
Some editors, like yours truly, are yet to be invited to any "Editor's Day" by NVIDIA, although I'm invited to similar events by DAAMIT.
Also, enjoy your fine rig, which you probably got without paying any dime, while I have to beg, threat and cry for any freebie I get. :)
nice
bit much to take in but good infoShould we believe you?
You were absolutely, and repeatedly, dead wrong right up until the HD2900XT launch regarding its performance and value (and you didn't even supply a mea culpa afterwards), so why should we believe you now when it comes to the RV670?Bitter of Nvidia again
*yawn* Again the same old story bashing Nvidia's next GPU when it's about to kick ATI real hard.I'm sure AMD appreciates your marketing help, but you'd need a lot more attention to help them with that.
Most of the points were just "this isn't true, believe me" or "I can't say it but RV670's gonna beat it, I'm sure!" How predictable.
As for TWIMTBP program, ATI is only stupid not to have one. If Nvidia helps these games to work better with GeForces, that's only good for GeForce owners.
All those games will be hot titles and you can bet that people will be benchmarking them like hell. If ATI loses, that's their problem. Sorry for them, but you don't have to cry so much about that.
I don't know what Nvidia have done to you, but you must get rid of this hatred some day. It's getting kind of monotonous to be honest.
J******, Charlie, that desk
If that's how it looks after a quick "Oh, it's going on the internet, best give it a quick tidy" clean-up, I'd hate to see it before.And why does that cup look suspiciously new, like you had to throw the old one out because you couldn't get the taste of mould out of it?
WTF?!
Hey Charlie, you'd be well advised to treat similar garbage from other companies as critically as you have this.Unfortunately you don't.
Interesting article...
Nice article. It was fun and interesting to read about the 8800GT and the PR marketing behind it. =)Although I liked most of the article, I disagree with your judgment that nVIDIA is being unfair by requiring that all games be tested with 4xAA and 16xAF. You said it's unfair b/c nVIDIA "knows" ATI cards have a problem with implementing AA. But, is that nVIDIA's fault or is it really ATI's fault? The 2900XT cards have been out for a while now and if their driver team can't fix the AA problem and some company wants to take advantage of that slipup, there is nothing wrong with it. It's just part of competition and nothing to do with unfairness. It's rather ATI's fault for being incompetent in their AA driver area and for letting their competitor look better for a while until they fix it.
The impression I got was that you were being unfair by calling nVIDIA unfair because perhaps you're an ATI fanboy. I'm not saying that's true but that's the impression I got. As for me, I'm a fanboy of who's got the best and right hardware at the time I decide to buy a new GPU. For the moment, I'm using an ATI 1900XT 512MB PCIE card with Catalyst v7.10 and loving it. =)
But...
Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?It's no secret that the "new" cards are not going to have any new architecture or performance gains, rather than new PR garb and a shiny new box.
Unfortunately, neither ATI or NVidia have yet to come out with anything amazing since the release of the 8800 gtx, and NVidia really seems to have no need to until the tables turn a bit, (as if they have anything to bring to the table right now, anyway).
In fact, it'd be a year before NVidia could cough up drivers if they actually DID release something that was ground-breaking.
No offense, but ATI products went way downhill after AMD purchased them. It may take a while before they're back on top with exciting products again, but I won't hold my breath.
I haven't bought a card for over a year simply because of NVidia's drivers and ATI's lack of anything that's more than just par.
That said, you're right. This PR junk is just that. This is nothing new, and nothing that anyone wants to see. Anyone that has any sense will wait for a new product.
ATI fanboy much?
I don't think the author could be a bigger ATI fanboy if he tried.I'm all about good performance for a good price and could care less about brand loyalty.
I couldn't say the same for the write of this article. It was painful to read.
missing the point
PR agents aren't paid to be fair to the competition. They aren't paid to paint the competition in an equally good light and hope the market sees their product is better. They are paid to represent the product and company in a positive light- whatever it takes. These guys are just doing their job as the job description requires. This doesn't mean I approve of the dissemination and selective information, just that I can understand why the company is spreading this stuff.NVIDIA is scared
It seems to me that NVIDIA is scared that ATi will knock them off their high horse, and it surely looks like that will be the case.DoF is nothing new
Depth of Field is not "Next Gen". It was released by 3DFX as one of it's T-Buffered cinematic realism effects on the VSA-100. Nvidia purchased 3dfx. It's about time they brought these features.http://www.graphicshardware.org/previous/www_1999/presentations/3dfx/index.htm
Frank
TWIMTBP Benchmarks
Actually I remember when DX9 titles were first coming out. A few games that were co-engineered by NV like TR: Angel of Darkness showed the Radeon 9600 Pro beating the best GeForce 5950 Ultra at 1600x1200.So not all TWIMTBP games benchmark better on NV cards.
Comments
"H.264 and AVC" are the same thing, no need to mention both.Most HD discs use VC1? Where does that come from? I'd be interested to see figures on that.
I don't know what's up with NV's VC1 decoding, but it's not as important since it requires less horsepower.
Companies trying to hilite strong aspects, choose where to fight, ignore what doesn't work... what's new? Most of them, if not all, do that.
Indignation.com
Hi,Interesting article. It may be worth noting that it would be an incredible move for any business to host its own event and then slam its own products.
Your indignation at the skewed results they quote while entertaining in its sheer frequency and rancor is a little naive.
This tangle of lies as you have painted it, is what is commonly known as marketing...
This one is going to hurt !
I am surprised that there are not yet 20 rabid Nvidia zealots here to trash this piece in every way they can think of.As for me, this whole thing is a storm in a teacup because
1) No Vista will ever come near my PC if I can help it.
2) DX10 does not make games better, only more shiny, and I've had shinier for around 10 years now - I can do without another coating.
I'm on XP and I'm going to stay there for a lot longer than Microsoft is dreaming of in its worst nightmares.
When DX10 comes to XP, and it will, then I'll worry a bit about how much Nvidia is lying. Well no actually, because I've long gotten the habit of ignoring whatever PR comes from a GPU vendor. I rely on independent benchmarks to choose which card I want.
HD DVD and Blu-Ray
I'm curious about the part where you said that ATI's cards can do the whole HD DVD Blu-Ray playback thing. You said it works with HD DVD, but have you tested it with Blu-Ray.I know it sounds silly, but gramatically, as long as ATI's cards don't work with Blu-Ray, even if they do with HD DVD, then technically NVIDIA aren't lying.
However, if you neglected to say that you have tested Blu-Ray, then I have no further comment.
Face Warmer
I may be wrong, but i thought one of the advantages of a digital connection is the reduced necessity for cludgy OSD controls for contrast and gamma etc.Being one of the unwashed masses i'm strangely comforted by knowing that my settings are factory set, and unchangeable.
I agree there's really no excuse for the single input port, unless that reduced the price of the monitor significantly. Which it may have.
If i would criticise anything I'd criticise: The heat output, which can comfortably warm one's face.
The viewing angle on such a large monitor means you get subtle variations in colour/brightness at the corners or top and bottom depending on how close you are and how you have it tilted.
However, it's still a helluva monitor, and despite the criticism I'm delighted with mine.
I call shenanigans!
Sure ATI has a better video decoder, but this is the first high-end DX10 part to actually include one. The other 8800 cards don't have it and the 2900 XT's don't have it either.BTW what's the current Linux performance of the two camps. I only ask because that's all I run.
PR
Well I certainly wouldn't expect Nvidia PR to attempt to be fair to ATI. As for the AA bug, who can blame nvidia for exploiting it. Personally I don't care about AA, at all, so I bought a 2900XT anyways. And actually a 2600XT as well, but I'm an pro ati. The 8800 GTS and GTX are sweet cards, and truthfully probably better than my 2900XT, my brothers have one of each, but nvidia is alot like apple computer in my books and I have no respect for them at all. They'll lie and do lame cover ups and screw people because they can.Bit silly
To say it's 'unfair' to test with AA must be some satirical joke or something, that's not meant seriously is it? I mean really.I was and am VERY impressed with how nvidia went all out fixing their AF with the 8800 generation of GPU.
And I am VERY disappointed with ATI-nay-AMD for releasing a GPU which falls apart when you enable AA, and I certainly hope, no - expect of them, that it's true that they fixed that bug in their new GPU's.
Don't forget incidentally that DX10.1 specifies some minimal AA as a requirement.
No cookie!
Bad, Nvidia... real bad...PR and spin is one thing, but lying about a fact that can so easily be checked (AMD not doing HD-acceleration at all resolutions) ist just plain stupid.
And the price points: RV670 is just two weeks away, that´s when NV boards will finally ship. Or has anyone seen them on the shelves yet?
Thanks for making all this public, Charlie, and for those flaming him: If he was an "AMD fanboy", why would he use an Intel CPU then??
Ati is Freaking Out
These new video cards are going to be awesome. They will support Pci express 2.0 so they will get the big bandwith performance increase. The bandwith should be around 56 GB per second. If you times this by 2 your bandwith is the same as an ultra. You will need an X38 MOBO to utilize this. You can't put them in SLI, but still for the prices of these new Video cards you can't beat the price. With the 780i just around the corner around November 15th with support of Pci express 2.0, ati is sweating bullets. I also now know from a leak from Compusa that the new 8800 GTS's with 128 SP's will also be released on Monday. This guy is definitly an ATI man and he already knows that they are swamped!Ummm...
Is it just me, or does Inq have some sort of grudge against nVidia? Nevermind that nVidia has squarely spanked ATI at all performance levels and price ranges. AMD makes a lot of promises and we're always hearing from the Inq that the next card will be the big tamale (like all those articles about how the R600 was going to put the hurt on the 8800GTX, or the recent one making the absurd and totally unsubstantiated claim that nVidia had conceded defeat against ATI's forthcoming cards).Who gives a flip about nVidia's PR? Every company ever engages in spin. DAAMIT did it spades with the R600. Fact is that nVidia makes better graphics cards than ATI, which is why ATI's market share amounts to nVidia's table scraps.
Let the nvidians get mad
I loved the article. You seem to be correct about VC1. Look at this:http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3986&Itemid=34
RV670 beats GT by a land slide in VC1. I hope your comments about RV670 beating Gt are also true.
Go figure.
Wow. Here it is, both the 8800gt and the 3870 on the market now. And look at how utterly wrong you were.nVidia won ><
I bought a X1950XT and it failed miserably, before that I had an x800 pro which held out for jsut as long as the GeForce 3 I had before it. After reading about the AA bug on ATI cards I'm glad I went back to nVidia for my latest card, 8800 GTX.Only game I've had a driver conflict with is World in Conflic, otherwise I love the card.
I'm not biased toward either manufacturer, whoever offers the best price/performance/support is who I will run with and at the moment nVidia supports more titles, has cheaper cards in each bracket and outperforms ATI's offerings.....feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that, it's about 6months since I was researching cards for my new rig so I never really evaluated the new range of ATI cards (R600)